Now I've seen (almost) everything.....

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by pinoybaptist, May 8, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    There's a thread about Catholic "Christian" musicians.

    Now, the link below I got from another list server I am subscribed to.

    CATHOLIC ELECTIONIST
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Oh, by the way, before I get accused of 'misrepresenting' Catholics, I do not believe the website owner is still a practicing Catholic.
    (But I may be wrong).
     
  3. Brother Adam

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    This is an anti-Catholic website.
     
  4. D28guy

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    Adam,

    Of course it is. Thank God for it...and many many others sharing the same truths, and exposing the same errors and heresies.

    In actuality, you could think of it as a pro-truth web-site. As a pro-truth web-site, they are not anti-catholic, the catholic church is an anti-truth organisation.

    Grace and peace,

    Mike
     
  5. D28guy

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    pinoy,

    Your link takes me to the home page of that fine web-site. Did you mean for it to go to a particular part?

    I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "catholic electionist"?

    Mike
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    [snipped]

    [ May 09, 2004, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
     
  7. Brother Adam

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    The Gloria

    Glory to God in the highest,
    and peace to his people on earth.
    Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
    we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
    Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
    Lord God, Lamb of God,
    you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
    you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
    For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
    You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
    with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
     
  8. D28guy

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    BrotherAdam,

    Thats a wonderful prayer there. I give it a hearty AMEN!

    If all catholic prayers were to Almighty God,(rather than to Mary) and the catholic church only promoted the worship of God,(rather than worship of Mary), and if the catholic church proclaimed the gospel of Jesus Christ, which teaches justification through faith alone,(rather than condemning that truth and replacing it with salvation through works, which God condemns), and if the catholic church had as their truth standard the scriptures alone, as God desires,(rather than the traditions of men) then I would have very little problem with catholicism at all.

    Grace and peace,

    Mike
     
  9. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    "Man does not need the beatific vision to fulfill him as a human, nor does he deserve it. And nothing he can do can merit it. This is the free gift of love from God." Dom Wulstan Mork

    Mike, I have great news for you!

    That Gloria is sung almost every Sunday in the Catholic Church!

    Catholics promote only the worship of God!

    Catholics promote only the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is preached everyday in Catholic Churches!

    Catholics condemn "works salvation"! but do not promote faith alone, because the Bible condemns faith alone! Of course, it takes a basic understanding of the progression of the covenants to the New Covenant to understand.

    And the Catholic standard of Truth is the Word of God!

    Oh- and whoever snipped my comment- thank you for totally proving my point.


    Here are some good places to get started reading:

    The Holy Bible, Catholic Edition

    Catechism of the Catholic Church

    Book of Common Prayer

    St. Joseph's New Sunday Missal (Scripture Readings)

    Code of canon law (www.vatican.va, http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/)

    Crossing the Threshold of Hope by His Holiness Pope John Paul II

    Transformed by Grace by Dom Wulstan Mork, O.S.B.

    The Mass Explained by Father Larry Richards

    The Truth about Mary by Patrick Madrid and Marcus Grodi

    The Truth by Father Larry Richards

    Hail, Holy Queen by Dr. Scott Hahn

    Rome Sweet Home by Dr. Scott Hahn

    The Lamb's Supper by Dr. Scott Hahn

    Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie

    The City of God by St. Augustine

    Confessions by St. Augustine

    Second Vatican Council documents (www.vatican.va)

    A Dictionary of Early Church Fathers edited by Bercot

    Letter's Between an Evangelical and Catholic by Father John Waiss (Opus Dei) and James McCarthy

    Upon This Rock By Stephen Ray
     
  10. D28guy

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    Brother Adam,

    I know. I was raised catholic. I have no problem with that prayer at all.

    Of course they tell you that. I would expect them to.

    Well, I was raised catholic...mass every sunday, 8 years of parochial school, religion class, catechism...but I never heard the gospel until one day at 24 years old an evangelical shared with me that I could be born again through faith alone. That is the gospel.

    When he asked my why I thought I might go to heaven, I told him what the nuns taught us. That we had to believe in Jesus(so far so good), and live a good life, and go to mass, and go to confession, and do the "penance" given to us by the priest, and obey the pope, and be in good standing with "holy mother church" and pray to Mary and ask for her help, and....by doing all that(and maybe some other requirments I'm probably forgetting) I might go to heaven, but probably I would go to a place called *purgatory* to suffer for whatever sins all of those works and efforts didint cancel out.

    (by the way, nothing has changed since then. I have encountered catholics in person and on message boards defend every bit of that. They attempt to wiggle out of it to an extent by "spinning" things a certain way, or playing little word games or linguistic gymnastics that they are taught by the hiearchy. I have heard the apologetic tactics taught by RC apologists on EWTN many times)

    Anyway, when this brother told me I could be completly, and permanently, connected to God through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ...through faith alone of course...it was like cool water to a thristy man, and I had never heard that before.

    Needless to say, what he shared with me was the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    "for it is by grace that you are saved...through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

    The works follow justification, but have no part of justification, as the following verse makes clear...

    "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

    Notice, the justification occures 1st, with faith in Christ being the only requirement. The new life in Christ follows.

    Completly false....

    Here it is from the council of trent...

    "If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).

    If anyone is unsure of what that means...this makes it clear...

    "CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema."

    I'm sorry, but Gods scriptures do not condemn Gods gospel.

    That passage I quoted up there, making justification through faith alone so clear, is supported by hundreds of other scriptures, passages of scriptures, pages of scriptures, and sometimes entire books of scripture.

    It is exceedingly important that we properly understand not only the progression of the covenants, but also those parts of the old covenant apply to us under the new covenant, and which do not.

    Well, I wish that were the case, but very unfortunetly that is not true.

    In the catholic church, truth is found sometimes in the word of God, but all the time in the teaching majesteriums interpretations of the scriptures, plus anything else that is dreamed up...over the course of 2000 years...that they decide to call "tradition".

    Grace and peace,

    Mike
     
  11. mioque

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    Just to annoy D28guy, it is probably entertaining to point out that the canons of the council of Trente he quotes were intended as condemnation of the denial of the existance of free will and not of salvation by Grace. :D
     
  12. D28guy

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    mioque,

    Doesnt annoy me one bit. I have heard that "spin" many many times.

    The problem is that that...is...not...what...the...council...cursings...SAY.

    They do not say that..."if anyone denies the existance of free will they are accursed". They say "if anyone denies that they must be a commandment keeper to be saved they are accursed".

    You cant just go around changing the meanings of words on a whim every time it causes you a problem. If you and I were lost people and we had an argument, I got mad at you and said to you "miouque, I'm going home and get my gun and then I'm coming back and I am going to find you and kill you", and then I left in a huff. You call the police, and say that I just threated to kill you, and could they please come right away, and they do. When I arrive and they tell me what you said I said, how do you think it would go if I said, nervously, "Yes, I said that, but what I meant was I'm going to go home and get my golf clubs and show miougue the best way to hit a 3 iron." And how would you feel if the police then said "He didnt mean what you thought he meant, mioque, you have nothing to worry about...have a good day!"

    Thats about how credible catholics sound when they try to wiggle out of something by, in essence, saying "those words dont really mean what you think they mean, Mike! They mean something completly different then what they clearly say!

    The cursings from the council of trent mean just what they say. If they didnt, then catholics would not argue when someone says that we are justified through faith alone.

    Let me ask you this:

    Do you acknowledge that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?

    No?

    Then you are verifying that those passages mean just what they say. That if one does not acknowledge that our good works and commandment keeping are necessary for justification, then they are under the curse of the catholic church.

    Almight God however, in the book of galaciens, clearly places His curse *specifically* on any gospel that adds works to what is required for salvation.

    Here it is...

    Almighty God...

    "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be jusified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

    Roman catholic church...

    "CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema."

    It is so exceedingly sad. Not only to see a large, once christian organisation so contradict the truth of the gospel, but to see people buy into their spin and apologetic untruths.

    Mike
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    I was referring to THIS PAGE of the site dealing with election.
     
  14. Living4Him

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    Phil 2:12, "...Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." How can anyone respond to that one except subjectively? How about Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity toward those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD toward you if you abide in His goodness, otherwise you also will be cut off." That says keep GOD's commandments or you will not make it to Heaven, and will be cut off. Then see 1Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected." Paul himself, teaching that even he, with all of his faith, could still be rejected.

    Look at Lk 6:46, "But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say? Doing the things which Jesus Christ says to do is 'works'.

    Heb 11:39-40, "And all these, though they had been approved by the testimony of faith, did not receive what was promised, for GOD had something better in view for us; so that they should not be perfected without us."

    Rev 2:26, "And to him who overcomes, and who keeps my works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations."

    Open your Bible to Acts 5:29-32... But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, "We must obey GOD rather than men...(32) and we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom GOD has given to all who obey him." Those verses are unmistakable that we have to do our part by obeying the commandments of GOD.

    Then there is Jam 2:14-26 which starts with (14) "What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have Works? Can the faith save him?...(17) So faith too, unless it has Works, is dead in itself...(20) Faith without Works is useless...(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by Works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Do you not see that Faith worked along with his Works, and by the Works the faith was made perfect?...(24) You see that by Works a man is justified, and not by faith only....(26) For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so, Faith also without Works is Dead." 'Subjective Salvation' in action, is shown for that whole section written by St. James. I could go on and on with verses like this, and could ask questions such as, why is there a need for the ten commandments, since we are 'automatically saved'?

    Read Matt 25:31:46. It is all about doing good works in this life. Then there is Rev 14:13, "And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, 'Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them.'" Is that clear enough that works are needed in addition to faith? What about Rev. 22:12, "Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I must call it to your attention that the Bible mentions Faith Only,
    once and only once, in one verse, and in that verse it says NOT by Faith Only.
    James 2:24
     
  15. BobRyan

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    You are correct - "by faith alone" is only found in one verse of the NT.

    However there is another interesting and balancing view found in Romans 3. "By faith apart from the works of the law".

    Paul believed in a kind of "works of the law" that are "apart from faith" as he defines it in Romans 3. This was his definition of legalism.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. D28guy

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    Living4Him,

    Oh, I've heard that silly little diversion a million times. Its a standard RC tactic. If it was me I would almost be embarrased by such a lame attempt.

    This should help you...

    James 2:24, not by faith alone

    The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

    There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

    James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" James 2:14. In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

    In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

    Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James_2 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

    Conclusion

    Justification is by faith. True faith results in regeneration of the sinner which, in turn, results in good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor keep it. Jesus accomplished that on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross. This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.


    Link...www.carm.org/doctrine/justification_verses.htm

    And here is some wonderful truth...

    Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

    Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

    Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

    Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

    Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

    Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

    Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

    Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

    Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

    Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

    Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And the one who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

    Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

    Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

    Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

    Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

    Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

    Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

    Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

    Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

    Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

    Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

    Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

    1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  17. Living4Him

    Living4Him
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    The gift of God is not faith. IT is Grace. Without the Grace of God, it would not be possible to have faith.
     
  18. D28guy

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    Living4Him,

    Well, that sounds like the kind of thing that would be better hashed out on a Calvinism/Arminianim thread.

    I didnt quote those scriptures for any calvinism or arminianism purpose...although I do side with one of those 2 [​IMG] ...but only to show justification through faith alone.

    Blessings,

    Mike
     
  19. HankD

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    You couldn’t prove it by me. As a young lad I was taught to pray (a form of worship) to God, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Saint Anthony, etc, etc, etc….

    I was taught to kneel before the statue of Mary, bow my head, make the sign of the cross, make my request known to her, thank her, make the sign of the cross and wait for her answer. BTW, this implies that Mary is omnipresent (at very least) in that she hears the prayers of millions of Catholics simultaneously.

    This procedure BTW is/was also the procedure for a prayer to Jesus.

    The Church of Rome makes an intellectual distinction between the worship due to God alone (latria) and the veneration due the saints (hyper-dulia). In reality and IMO it’s a word game.

    Also IMO it's wrong, but I don't blame the laity but the elite/aristocracy who know (or should know) better.

    HankD
     

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