1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Now you too can be

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 2 of 8
  1. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    Amy, of course; but God does not elect those who choose Him. God elects without looking forward to any action by man. That's what a sovereign God does.
     
    #21 Herald, Jun 20, 2012
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    I know, but I think some have missed the point. :)
     
    #22 Amy.G, Jun 20, 2012
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don't know about Van, but I feel very honored to be attacked by Iconoclast. I must be doing something right. :thumbsup:
     
    #23 Winman, Jun 20, 2012
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Do not worry brother....I am here for you;):confused:;)

    Winman......you sound like a nice person.I think you are mostly sincere but have been drifting in the wrong direction on these teachings.
    I mostly do look at your posts and try to think of how I could somehow re-direct some of your thoughts......but.....then again I remember sometime back you told me in no uncertain terms that you did not want or need my help.
    Such help as I offered you felt would not help at all. So now I resort to some humor to see if it will work.
    On a more serious note however- some of your posts this past month are very hard to read and not react to.

    I cannot say more at this time.Perhaps some day we will meet for coffee and see what is going on up in CT.
     
    #24 Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    You are correct Amy G. If God did not choose [elect] some to salvation in Jesus Christ no one would be or could be saved.
     
    #25 OldRegular, Jun 20, 2012
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Hello AmyG,
    Sometimes we come to truth by straight out study of the word as the Spirit opens truth to us. Once you get an understanding ....the word of God is like a plumbline. When you see something crooked near the plumbline it stands out and you can spot the error.
    Many recent posts have drifted off from the sure word,into idle speculations.
    We can learn from this also.:thumbs:
     
    #26 Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    I am sure you are a nice person too, but I absolutely disagree with your theology. I believe it is total error and disagrees with much scripture.

    Unlike you, I do not mindlessly accept the teachings of theologians. I have respect for some of them, and consider their views, but in the end I derive what I believe from what the scriptures say, not men.

    I post the scripture that I believe supports my views, almost never does anyone refute what I post. They just simply accuse me of error, call me a Pelagian or a heretic, whatever... This alone shows they cannot refute my arguments, so they resort to name calling. Nobody is fooled.

    I do not think of Calvinists as bad persons, just deceived. Calvinists make the mistake of interpreting scripture to fit their view, instead of letting scripture say what it truly says. The false teaching of regeneration before faith is a good example, I could easily post a dozen verses that all say a person must believe before they have life (such as John 3:16), yet Calvinists insist regeneration precedes faith when they know there is not one single verse of scripture to support it. YOU KNOW IT, you cannot show any scripture that supports your view, if you did know scripture that supports your view you would show it. No Calvinist has EVER done this.

    Believe whatever you want, but Calvinism is not scriptural, it is a man-made theology. If that offends you, well, better are the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy.
     
    #27 Winman, Jun 20, 2012
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
     
    #28 Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Thanks for the link....i am musically clueless so i have to go by what you say AIC......except for the new song in my heart, I do not know much about it.
    Too many diesel fumes and listening to the rpm's has dulled my musical hearing....watching corn fields grow and tumbleweeds move along has kept me sheltered from this instrument:laugh:
     
    #29 Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    Oh come now! Be truthful!! We don' have that kind of "music" here on Lawnguiland!! We just stick with the hip hop beat! ;)
     
    #30 annsni, Jun 20, 2012
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I think a couple of times a year at Westbury music fair they might...or maybe at Stony Brook.....on saturday morning I think they play bluegrass music, or sometimes celtic music on the college radio station.
     
    #31 Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    When a person fails to respond to scripture posted, but simply calls someone a Pelagian, that is name calling.

    If all a person does is read from Reformed writers, he will of course think the view is correct, because they all agree. This proves nothing. Would you agree that Catholic scholars, or Mormon scholars would all agree with each other? So what does it prove?

    Well, you tend to post creeds, give links to Reformed teachers or sermons... You rarely speak for yourself, and when you do, you simply parrot what all Reformed teachers say. That in no way proves it is correct.


    Well, of course I reject most Reformed theologians, I believe they err interpreting scripture. I always post the scripture that I believe refutes the Reformed view. I do not call folks heretics, I use scripture to argue my points. Once in awhile I will quote a theologian, but this is to show that others agree with my point of view.

    But you don't refute it. I can almost always counter Reformed arguments and show it is error from scripture. Again, take the example of regeneration preceding faith, I have probably shown dozens of scriptures that clearly refute it. It is Calvinists that are in denial. Any Calvinist who says a non-Cal cannot show scripture that supports faith preceding regeneration is either an outright liar, or in total denial. There are dozens of verses that all say a person must first believe before having life. I could quote them here, but you have seen them many times. John 20:31 is one such example.

    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Luke2427 admitted this verse "appears" to say faith precedes regeneration, and then twisted logic to try to say it says the exact opposite. Now that is pathetic. This verse absolutely says a person must believe to have life.

    It is Calvinists that are in denial, not non-Calvinists.

    Most Calvinists simply say it is error and do not explain why, or simply post a "cliche" Reformed proof-text that can easily be refuted such as Psalms 51:5.

    You assume you know truth, but ignore much scripture that clearly refutes you like John 20:31. This is one of your personal favorite tactics, to speak as though you are certain you are correct and cannot be wrong. I would disagree, I believe you are often in error. Your self confidence does not persuade me.


    And there you go, nothing of substance, just ridicule and the arrogant assumption that you are correct.

    I would disagree with Calvinist proof texts and assumptions.

    There you go, you assume regeneration precedes faith when there is not one verse of scripture to support it, but there are numerous verses which say faith precedes regeneration.

    And I would say it is you that perverts truth. The difference is I can show scripture that refutes your view, while you cannot show scripture that refutes mine.

    Anybody can say someone else perverts scripture, doesn't mean it is true. Just another example of name calling by you and other Calvinists.


    You can laugh all you want, I am not afraid of your ridicule. Another classic form of Calvinist argument, one Calvinist will laugh and ridicule a non-Cal, then all your fellow Calvinists will slap you on the back and say what a great job you did correcting the heretic.

    You must think I am a kid or a teenager, I am not afraid of your ridicule, or the ridicule of all your buddies.

    When you have that scripture that directly says a man must have life to believe, or that the unregenerate man cannot believe, post it.

    That's all you have to do, but no Calvinist ever shows this scripture, because it doesn't exist. Calvinism is not scriptural, it is a man-made theology.
     
    #32 Winman, Jun 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2012
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Winman,
    I noticed you seemed to have missed ezk 36 completely so I will post it for you again.



    Now ...lets look at one of your supposed strongman passages......


    The focus is on what was written. The focus is on these particular passages being made scripture. The focus is not the anatomy of regeneration.

    The focus is on what is the content of a saving belief.

    He is calling the reader to face all the scripture, speaking of all of God's work of redemption;
    1] the truth of the incarnation
    2] Jesus knowing what was in man
    3] the need to be born from above
    4] Jesus changing the holy place, from earthly to heavenly
    5] Jesus granting eternal life to believers
    6]the true bread, the covenant of redemption, the new exodus,
    7] the indwelling Spirit enabling
    8] religious unsaved people dying in their sins as reprobates
    9] blind eyes opened supernaturally, not naturally, Jesus active obedience in sabbath keeping
    10] jesus the good shepherd, saving elect sheep not goats
    11] Jesus the resurrection and the life
    12] The King comes to Zion, Jews reprobated, an elect remnant saved
    13-16] promise of the Spirit to build the church
    17] High Priestly prayer, for the elect
    18] establishment of truth...The kingdom explained, the priestly work and mediation underway
    19]The accomplishment of redemption
    20] the ascension

    All believers believe. The passage does not explain why or how they are enabled to believe. Doctrinal passages address that specifically. Jesus explained all through Jn like here:
     
    #33 Iconoclast, Jun 20, 2012
  14. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,744
    Likes Received:
    34
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was in Mandolin Brothers in Staten Island (NYC) (they stock about 50- 5 string banjos...Gibsons, Stellings, I mean you name it) and you can play any of them in the store. About 15 years ago I was chatting with another customer, telling the lad about playing the 5 string in church and he lammented the fact that since he was Catholic he couldn't play even during folk mass. Of course I urged him to unite with something a little more evangelical as you know we are more open to different instruments on Sunday morn.

    The first time I played the slow and serious music during communion there was a sort of tension in the air, as in how can a banjo enhance the service but my 5 string versions of The old Rugged Cross, Amazing Grace, This little Light and so forth did not get me kicked out of the church and I've played for communion many times since.
     
    #34 thomas15, Jun 20, 2012
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
     
    #35 Winman, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2012
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    Yep - DEFINITELY not prevalent kind of music around here, is it?
     
    #36 annsni, Jun 21, 2012
  17. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    1
    Most of it my friend. I have a fair understanding of Calvinism. Brought up in a very strong Calvinistic home, church and seminary. My soterioligy changed about 6 to 8 week before finishing seminary. :thumbs:
    Calvinist aren't my enemy we just don't agree on some things.
    As Dr. Alan Cairns has said many times, we are on the same team, He believes to many Calvinist lack showing love at times. He also ask why are so many of his view and him as well saved in non Calvinistic churches.
    However brother I thank you for the offer.:jesus:
     
    #37 Bob Alkire, Jun 21, 2012
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Alan Cairns is really good to listen to. You always get something when he works through the scripture:thumbsup::wavey:
     
    #38 Iconoclast, Jun 21, 2012
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Winman,

    You skipped ezk36 again...here it is-
    Quote:
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    The word regeneration does not appear here....but this is regeneration----can you see that God says he will do it, He will cause it to be.No christian should miss this truth.No christian should pervert this truth.

    In your response you demonstrated how you fragment the scripture here-

    verse 13 gives the explanation...as many have showed you

    not of the WILL of man....but of God

    Like ezk 36...it is all of God:type:

    One of us has it exactly backwards and wrong:thumbsup:

    Tell me without changing the verses to say otherwise....explain the Ezk 36 passage....or you can also explain how 16 times in ezk 34 we are told what the Good Shepherd is going to do for the elect....which Jesus explains in Jn 10

    6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

    7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

    8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

    9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

    10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

    11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

    12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

    13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

    14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

    15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

    16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

    17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

    18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

    19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
    20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

    21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

    22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

    23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

    24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

    25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

    26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

    27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

    28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

    29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

    30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

    31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

    God does it all.The sheep are glad He does.
     
    #39 Iconoclast, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2012
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    Iconoclast

    Just a word of caution. In challenging Winman you are taking on the very best in "I-eisegesis" on this Board!
     
    #40 OldRegular, Jun 21, 2012
Page 2 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...