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My friend, we agree on him. Good man to talk to, it has been about 10 years or so, but what a blessing.

 

Harold...

You responded to Amy with...

Error. Falsehood. A fairy tale.

God has chosen to save those who place thier faith in Christ, rather then reject. The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

Thats what a loving, fair, and just God does.

 

Winman, if you want to start a tread on “Iconoism” I could contribute a WHOLE lot of material.

Eh, ...on second thought we all know the name calling Icon would engage in for those canal apostates who dare question his interpretation of the “historic confession of faith” and anyway Dr. Bob would probably show up to shut it down citing it to be an unchristian tread started by “fools” to begin personal attacks, or maybe do a stealth fly by and do it, nevermind, just a thought.

 

WWRCSS (What would R C Sproul say?)

 

You don't get it, I do not deny regeneration, I believe it as much as you, only I believe the scriptures clearly teach a man is regenerated AFTER they first believe.

No man can be spiritually alive until he first believes on Christ. Until you believe you are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.

To say a man is spiritually alive before believing on Jesus is to deny Jesus. You are claiming a man has spiritual life OUTSIDE of Jesus. This is why Reformed theology is such serious error, it denies Jesus.

You have made Jesus SECONDARY. It is not Jesus that gives you life in Calvinism, it is the Father regenerating you before you believe that gives life in Calvinism. You have completely denied Jesus.

Verse 13 is simply explaining that being regenerated is an act of God that no man can perform. That does not negate verse 12 that says to those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become a son of God. A person becomes a son of God, they are born again, after they believe.

It is like going to a brain surgeon. You cannot operate on your own brain and heal yourself. But if you trust the doctor and allow him to operate, he has the knowledge and ability to heal you.

That is all John 1:12-13 is saying. To those who receive Jesus and believe on him, to those persons God will give them the power to be born again. He will heal the person sick in sin. Only God has this power and ability.

The sheep are those whom the Father has seen in his foreknowledge that will believe in time. God has chosen these persons, they are his sheep, and he gives those persons to Jesus.

We are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father. You know this as well as I do. You simply deny that God has chosen those who believe. But the scriptures show God does choose those who believe.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith. It is right there, but you deny it. The OT has many verses that say the poor, the fatherless, and the oppressed trust in God. These are the persons God chose to confound the wise and mighty, that no man should boast.

So again, I can show you scripture that God has chosen those rich in faith. You will deny it, but I have shown you.

 

Iconoclst...

I shared with you the truth that God does not have robots, some pre-programed to to go to heaven, while other un-lucky ones are pre-programmed for hell. Rather He actually saves the ones who CHOOSE Him.

And you responded with...

You amaze me, Iconoclast. you are the King of diseingenuous. The Master of diverson. The Grand Poobah of of slipperyness.

He askes for scripture.

I have given you scripture regarding this issue. More than once. Others have have given you scriptures. More than once. And yet you continue to ask for scriptures

Well this is the last time I am going to do this for you. After this, you can look up the scriptures yourself.

Here you go, for the last time....

These scriptures make it abunduntly clear that men and women are not puppets on a string, or robots, rather...they MAKE CHOICES, including regarding being saved.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
(NIV)

Deuteronomy 11:26-28
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse--
27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;
28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
(NIV)

Deuteronomy 30:15-18
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
(NIV)

Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
(NIV)

2 Samuel 24:12
12 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'"
(NIV)

I Kings 3:14
14 And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life."
(NIV)

2 Chronicles 26:5
5 He sought God during the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God. As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success.
(NIV)

Matthew 23:37
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
(NIV)

John 15:6-7
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
(NIV)

Colossians 1:22-23
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(NIV)

Hebrews 3:14-15
14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
(NIV)

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
(NIV)

Hebrews 6:11-12
11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
(NIV)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
(NIV)

Hebrews 10:36-39
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
(NIV)

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
(NIV)

1 Timothy 4:1
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
(NIV)

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(NIV)

I John 2:1-2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NIV)

 

What kind of statement is this? Faith and belief are the same thing. But if you are speaking of being regenerated, many Calvinists believe a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before believing on Jesus. I have showed quotes from Calvinists (such as R. C. Sproul's associate) before. Luke said he believes a person can be regenerated a "long time" before they are "saved", but he did not explain exactly what he meant by that.

You cannot be spiritually alive for a millisecond before you believe, until you believe on Jesus you are DEAD IN SIN.

Absolutely false, millions of Christians have and do believe God chose those whom he saw in his foreknowledge would believe in time. This is a very orthodox view held by millions of Christians.

You are correct, being poor does not guarantee a person will have faith in God. And some rich people believe in God. But generally speaking, it is the poor and downtrodden, those who are despised among men who trust in God. There are many verses that say this in scripture.

Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

We have the story of the poor widow who gave her last two coins to the offering. Jesus said she gave more that all the rest. Others gave out of their abundance, but she gave her entire living and depended and trusted in God to take care of her.

Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

There was no such thing as Social Security in gospel times. A widow had a very difficult time surviving. But this poor widow cast her last two coins, all that she had into the treasury. She trusted and depended on God that he would take care of her. She was rich in faith.

I believe that a person must be born again to be saved, just as Jesus said.

What? Regeneration means to be made alive again. If a person believes and has eternal life, they are regenerated, that is what regenerated means.

No one can be spiritually alive until they believe and their sins are forgiven. But you teach a person is regenerated while they are still in their sins and before they have believed on Jesus. Besides being utterly illogical, it contradicts all scripture and denies Jesus. No man has life until he believes on Jesus.

 

guess He Hoped that enough sinners would come to christ, that enough of them would make the right decision to accept, not reject Christ!

 

again, you have apllied human reasoning to what God should be doing!

truth is that ALL are lost, under judgement and condemnation, that unless the Lord intervened, NONE would get saved...

What he did was to send His Son to die as atonement for his people, and brught those chosen by him to faith in yeshua, and allowed the lost to stay as they desired to be, lost!

 

Not ALL cals hold to extended periods of time between regeneration and faith in jesus!

I hold to it being same time, part of the salvation process, as God sends his Spirit to enable us to be able to respond by faith to gospel moment we hear it! God moves in a fashion towards us to make us able to respond to Gospel, and at that time we will place faith in jesus to get saved!

 

I never said they did, but Iconoclast said all Calvinists believe faith and belief happen at the same time. Of course they do, faith is belief!

But not all Calvinists believe regeneration and faith happen at the same time.

If you believe a person is made alive so that they are able to believe, then you believe regeneration precedes faith. This denies Jesus, it says a man can have spiritual life without Jesus. And those Calvinists who believe a person can be regenerated for long periods of time before believing on Jesus believe they have life without Jesus for long periods, possibly years or decades.

You don't get it, if you are spiritually alive before believing, you have no need to believe, you are already alive. But worse, you deny Christ, you say a man has life without Christ.

This is no minor issue, you should think long and hard about it. It is not a game.

 

Double post

 

Not true. My conclusions ALWAYS come from the truth found in the scriptures.

I agree. God sends discernable conviction and light to every person who comes into the world, at least once, but usually many times. At that point, the one under conviction has a decision to make.

He died for all people. Every single person who comes into the world. They all receive Light, and they all have a decision to make.

God bless.

 

What is known is that unless God does SOMETHING to us while we hear the gospel of Jesus, it falls upon deaf ears of a sinner whose nature precludes him 'naturally" responding and getting saved!

Call it regeneration, openning them up, enabling, God still has to do it!

 

Did he provide propiation/satisfaction for ALL sinners to God then?

 

Genesis 3

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ​

The reason I posted this promise of the Redeemer, is to highlight the emnity part.

Her seed = the seed of promised redemption.

Thy seed = the seed of Satan and satanic influence.

It seems to me that had not God both foreknowledge and foreordained the saved, then He (God) would not have had the authority to promise enmity.

I realize that some would contend that "her seed" refers to Christ. However, if that is true (which I also do so think) then what specific person does "thy seed" refer? If one is specific the other should also be specific. If one is not, then the other should not.

We are saved in time because that is an event that God planned and purposed from the beginning.

The "experience" of salvation is NOT for God, but for the believer. God has already saved that person before they ever "come to the knowledge of Christ."

How is the above statement proved?

Go back and consider the parable of the sower: Who is in charge of the dirt? The land owner (farmer).

Who is the land owner (farmer) of that parable? God

Some are appointed to be saved. Some are not. That is God's business and though the people contend that God was "unfair" the prophet showed them, clearly, God was completely just, fair, and extended grace as He determined.

It may sound cruel to humankind thinking, but then we are not God. We are but dirt - dust.

I am somewhat alarmed that some do not look at Godly conviction as part of the regenerative work. Seems like the unregenerate could care less about Godly conviction and can only feel "sorry for getting caught" emotionalism.

Again, who prepared the dirt? Was all dirt prepared?

A good farmer knows that preparation takes a much longer time than planting and harvest.