NUTS FOR ARMINIANS TO CRACK

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by BrotherJoe, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brothers in Christ (this includes Arminians, Calvinists, and those in between imo),

    I came accross this article entitled NUTS FOR ARMINIANS TO CRACK by Elder JB Hardy and thought it would make a good thread. Below are some of the questions. In your answer please be as breif and straightforward as possible, and if desired, supply scripture references to support your answer.

    1) If all sinners possess will and power to come to Christ, why did Christ say (John 6:44), "No man can come unto Me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him?"

    2). Were those free agents that Peter said (2 Peter 2:12), were made to be taken and destroyed, and should utterly perish?

    3)Were those free agents who were before of old ordained to this condemnation? (Jude 1:4.)

    4) Would not the doctrine of free agency make man the cause of his own salvation?

    5) Is any one free that is a servant? Are not all men the servants of sin until they are made free by the Son? (John 8:34-36.)

    6) If God only wills to save those that are willing to be saved, is not God's will dependent upon man's will?


    8)If God only wills to save those that are willing to be saved, is not God's will dependent upon man's will?

    9)Does God work all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephe- 1:1 1), or does He work some things after the will of the sinner?

    10)Does a sinner have the will to do God's will prior to being born again? If so, is his will changed in the spiritual birth?

    11)If sinners are saved otherwise than by grace alone, Will some one please cite the chapter and verse which says so?

    12)If God works all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephe. 1: I 1), was it His will to save those that will not be saved?

    13)Do we have to act in order to live, or does life always precede action?

    14)50. Did Christ come to seek and to save sinners (Luke 19:10), or to save those that seek Him?

    15)If Christ only made salvation possible and the sinner makes it sure by his acts, which deserves the more praise?

    16) If belief a condition of salvation, is it not a cause of salvation?

    Brother Joe
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    AMEN!! [​IMG]

    No one seems to have a hammer heavy enough to crack those nuts BrotherJoe :D

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll take a shot at number 1:

    Perhaps it means that God calls many, but not all who hear the call actually respond.

    It seems to me that Jesus told a parable about this truth.
     
  4. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    16) YES! The condition of the one being saved is the Cause of the one being saved! "Belief in Jesus", God, is the condition that must be present in the one being saved in order for the one to be saved!

    For all who do not have that belief, there is NO Salvation! For there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved!
     
  5. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    15)If Christ only made salvation possible and the sinner makes it sure by his acts, which deserves the more praise? Bogus question! Faith is not an act! You have it or you don't.

    Christ Atoned for the Sins of the world, ALL SINS in ALL TIMES! He alone paid the penalty for sin so the sinner is not assessed the penalty, which is death, for the sins committed. This ATONEMENT makes Salvation possible because the penalty for sins cannot be assessed against the sinner! This applies equally to EVERY SINNER!

    However to have everlasting life, ONE MUST BELIEVE ON THE SON OF GOD!...According to Jesus! Believing is not 'Acting', but is the spiritual condition of the one who believes!

    Therefore the question as asked is BOGUS!
     
  6. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    14)50. Did Christ come to seek and to save sinners (Luke 19:10), or to save those that seek Him? ANOTHER BOGUS QUESTION

    Are these questions taken from, "101 questions for stupid people to ask"?

    The answer to the question is BOTH There can be no one saved who is not first a sinner! Because if you are not a sinner, you are perfect and not in need of salvation! And If you seek Him, He is very willing for you to find Him and will not turn you away.

    So the answer is BOTH!
     
  7. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice try, but you didn't even hit the nut.

    Where does the Bible say that many are called but few respond?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know what you are even saying here :confused: Your two statements are unrelated. The first you make the condition to be the reason for salvation. Now, do you believe the condition is faith alone?

    In the second you make the condition to be the presence of God, this is not different than what I believe, first regeneration (that is the presence of God) then the person has faith because of this presence of God.

    Now, Dear Yelsew2, before I have a stroke from running in circles and trying to read your other quick draw posts, please, let's get past this first response. You have built two opposing theological systems here, one must stand and the other fall.

    Let's discuss these two and not try to make the two stand together, they cannot.

    Just separate them and let me know which one you believe, we can go from there. [​IMG]

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  9. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    13)Do we have to act in order to live, or does life always precede action? I can do this if you can! Think about it.
     
  10. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro. Dallas,
    My post on question 16 does not have a first and second...Period! It is one thought!

    The only condition of man that causes man to be saved is belief in God. God does not save those who do not have belief in Him! If you know otherwise please be brave enough to post it so we can discect it too!

    The question posed is this:
    The subject is salvation. The condition of man through which man is saved, is belief in God the Son. Therefore belief is the Condition that Causes Salvation!

    Stick to question 16!
     
  11. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, you are making the argument against the nut here...look at what you say above, please...then tell me your quote above is not saying "Regeneration before faith".

    yes, we have to live before we can act, if we do not live, there can be no actions associated with life emitted from ourselves.

    Can you see how you are supporting what is in your opinion the 'hardshell' nut here?

    Please, make your statements to which side you are on and stick with it, unless you have seen the error of your position and wish to come to where the ground is solid instead of there in the sifty sand.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  12. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    12)If God works all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephe. 1: I 1), was it His will to save those that will not be saved?

    Without equivocating on my part, God Can do whatever God wants, or wills to do! God does not seek councel from me!

    However, God established in the New Covenant, that Man's salvation is the result of man's faith! No, Man does not do the saving, God does. But man does establish the condition within himself that assures his salvation or his destruction.

    If God says that He saves those who have faith in Him, Then God does not save those who lack faith in Him. Man's Faith is God's established condition for God's salvation of man.

    God gave man the capacity to believe or not believe as man sees fit! God is not going to violate what he has already given man!
     
  13. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    1) Because He is drawing all (12:32, 1:7,9)

    2, 3) Yes, because they refused repentance, and wound up in a position where God "gave them over" to their sins or "hardened" them into a role that was ordained to destruction. These do not say it was the individuals themselves who were so ordained.

    4) No, because man could not have done anything apart from God offering salvation in the first place.

    5) a servant can still ask to be free.

    6, 9) God is the one who "willed" it that way in the first place, so He is still ultimately in control of the plan of salvation.

    10, 11) Nobody ever said these things, but that is how the other side often characterizes or view.

    12) Scripture says so (John 3:17, 1 Tim.2:3-6), but there is obviously an eternal will and a permissive will. The other side also answers this with "two wills", but calls them something else.

    13) This is an overgeneralized reference to the first birth. This has nothing to do with the second birth, and the Bible makes no such correlation.

    14) As Yelsew showed, both.

    15, 16)That is a silly argument made by those who insist anything other than UE is a "work". Once again, the sinner could have done nothing apart from God's offered grace, whether you hold that he can "choose" what God offers, or not.
     
  14. BBNewton

    BBNewton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's another question that hasn't been answered:

    1. If God wants every individual person to be saved, and believing in Christ is the only way to salvation, why do so many people go to the grave without ever hearing about Christ?


    How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)
     
  15. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    11)If sinners are saved otherwise than by grace alone, Will some one please cite the chapter and verse which says so?

    For you to believe, you must accept that the Atonement for sin, provided by Jesus, removed the penalty for sin which is death from the sinner, and that Jesus' atonement is unilateral and universal, meaning that it is God who atoned for man's sin, and that ALL sins for ALL times was atoned for ONE time for ALL.
    Do you believe that? Yes? or No?

    For you to believe, you must accept that man cannot earn salvation by works that man does!
    Do you believe that? Yes? or No?

    For you to believe, you must accept that Salvation is a free gift of God to those who believe on his name!
    Do you believe that? Yes? or No?

    For you to believe, you must accept that those who believe in God, Even on his name, shall not face the Final judgment (John 3:18).
    Do you believe that? Yes? or No?

    For you to believe, You must understand that God's grace is also unilateral and universal, meaning that man can do nothing to cause God to shed His Grace on us, and that ALL men are equal recipients of God's Universal Grace, no man receiving more grace than any other.
    Do you believe that? Yes? or No?

    If you answered yes to each of those questions, then you should understand that the salvation equation looks like this:

    FAITH = SALVATION

    It is not faith plus something else, just faith!
    Sins are not a factor in Salvation
    Works are not a factor in Salvation
    With sins not a factor and works not a factor, then what is the final judgment based on? Faith or the lack of faith. Those with faith are not judged, those without faith are judged by their lack of faith (John 3:18)

    Now, if you believe that God's grace is unilateral and Universal, and if you believe that God is no respecter of man, then you are compelled to believe that God's grace does not save man because if it did ALL men would be saved! If All men are saved then there is no reason for a separating of the sheep from the goats, or for a Final judgement (Rev 20:14,15).
     
  16. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    10)Does a sinner have the will to do God's will prior to being born again? If so, is his will changed in the spiritual birth?

    Do you believe that you are created in the image of God? Does God have a will? Yes? or No?
    If yes, then there is no reason to believe that man does not have a will also! Since man has a will, Can man willfully hear and believe and thereby Come to faith in God? YES! but he must hear the word of God and believe what he hears in order to have the desire or will to come to God! The word of God is not limited to the Corinthian Leather bound book called a bible.

    Being a sinner is not the condition one is in who has not been born again. Even the born again believers can continue to sin, and I'm willing to bet that less than .000001% of ALL believers do not sin once they've been born again. But all who are born again who do sin, have an advocate who is Faithful and Just to forgive sins that are confessed and repented from.
     
  17. BBNewton

    BBNewton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yelsew,

    But then it all come back to the question of why one person has faith and another doesn't. You believe faith is self originating, therefore salvation is ultimately of the self.


    15)If Christ only made salvation possible and the sinner makes it sure by his acts, which deserves the more praise? I guess you get the praise, because the majority of people don't have the faith that you profess. :(
     
  18. BBNewton

    BBNewton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yelsew,

    You stated:

    "Do you believe that you are created in the image of God? Does God have a will? Yes? or No?
    If yes, then there is no reason to believe that man does not have a will also!"

    You constant comparison of man to God is invalid. God never went through a fall and entered death. God is never described as being a slave to sin. We are described as being slaves, and our will is part of us. We are not free by nature.

    The Pelagian lie is as old as humanity itself, as the serpent said to Eve, "ye shall be like God."
     
  19. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you reading challenged? Why can't you read what I wrote and quote me accurately?
     
  20. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not comparing man to God, the created to the creator. I am accepting what God said about his created man. "let us create man in our image". You can refuse to accept that and continue to FALSELY accuse me of pelagianism all you want. Your accusations carry no weight with God!

    You willingly accept the lie that God did not say his creation is VERY GOOD! You insist that God made his "man", a blithering idiot, incapable of anything but sin, decadence, and unworthy of being the object of God's free gift of Salvation. You are SO WRONG! God Loved us so much that he gave his only Son as the ransom for our lives! You cannot tell me that we are worthless. For someone as Important and so far above us, as God is, to actually come to us and visit us and walk and talk with us BELIES every 'total depravity' lie you believe in. So get thee behind me satan!
     

Share This Page

Loading...