O.K. Now that you have this fine education,

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by Plain Old Bill, Jul 6, 2005.

  1. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill
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    where is your fruit? By fruit I mean those won to Christ and discipled,daughter churches,missionaries out of your church,those called to preach who have went off to Bible Colleges and seminaries.Whose lives have been changed because of your ministry?Do you feel this was aided by your world class education or did you get your training elsewhere?How many churches have been planted as a result of your ministry?

    I'm not trying to enlarge or belittle anyones education or the varying degrees or "quality" of education.I'm trying to get a picture of what seems to work.I'm very hands on oriented.

    My own personal view as to what is a good education or preparation for the ministry would include the following:
    A good in depth understanding of God's Word first and foremost.That would include at least a functional understanding of Greek.A good understanding of Hebrew would be an added benefit.

    A good solid understanding of Bible doctrine and systematic Theology.

    A good understanding of Apologetics.

    A good understanding of Christian education.

    The training and ability to do good effective pastoral counseling.

    The training and ability to properly administrate a New Testament Church.

    Proven ability in Personal Evangelism and training.

    At least 3 years of being mentored by a Senior Pastor in a Bible believing,Soul winning, sin hating,loving church.That would also include learning how to develop,prepare,& deliver sermons.

    Of course more could be added but these are what I would consider fundamental skills and knowledge needed to pastor a church. Any Bible Institute,college,or seminary that does not see to it at least these skills ,knowledge base,and experience level exist has failed in it's mission.

    At least that is my two cents worth.
     
  2. RandR

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    Can only speak for myself....

    Everything on your list was a part of--either explicitly or integrated with something else--my seminary curriculum. But that only scratches the surface of what I consider my real "education."

    In undergrad, I began to understand the importance of biblical backgrounds, ancient history, etc. to good hermeneutics. Also began to learn to think critically.

    Seminary taught me the languages, systematic theology, and how to communicate the Bible for an audience.

    In my local church I learned how to share the gospel propositionally. Later, in the "real world," I learned how to present those propositions such that they seem less like propositions and more like the greatest story ever told.

    In doctoral work I've explored soteriology, taken an in-depth look at the early Christian communities in Acts, and am realizing that biblical ecclisiology is bigger than polity matters and isn't either "biblical" or "ecclesiology" if it isn't also missiological.

    Where's the fruit? Good question. How many saved along the way? Don't know. I share because the Bible says to. Some were saved during the encounter, others weren't. How many total? Only God knows. Would more or fewer have been saved without all that "fine education?" Can't say. But probably fewer.

    How many churches started? None. Yet. BUT...if it weren't for all of that education, my answer would likely not include the "yet." For you see, it has taken that entire process for God to call me out of a former way of thinking about church and to give me a New Testament picture of kingdom expansion. Where am I now? On the verge of stepping out in a huge leap of faith into a ministry of church planting and church reproduction.

    I've only just begin to realize some of the many reasons why it was so crucial to sacrifice the time and money to get an education.
     
  3. Rhetorician

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    RandR,

    I for one would be interested to know where you did all of your degree, especially your MDiv and Doctoral work?

    sdg!

    rd
     
  4. gb93433

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    where is your fruit? By fruit I mean those won to Christ and discipled,daughter churches,missionaries out of your church, those called to preach who have went off to Bible Colleges and seminaries.

    Several are on the mission field, some working regular jobs and some discipling people today and as pastors.

    Do you feel this was aided by your world class education or did you get your training elsewhere?

    Everything combined. Most was done when I was in a parachurch organization. Some was while I was pastoring.

    How many churches have been planted as a result of your ministry?

    Planted three, replanted one and pastored one.


    My own personal view as to what is a good education or preparation for the ministry would include the following:
    A good in depth understanding of God's Word first and foremost.That would include at least a functional understanding of Greek.A good understanding of Hebrew would be an added benefit.

    A good solid understanding of Bible doctrine and systematic Theology.

    A good understanding of Apologetics.

    A good understanding of Christian education.

    The training and ability to do good effective pastoral counseling.

    The training and ability to properly administrate a New Testament Church.

    Proven ability in Personal Evangelism and training.


    I agree. The key is proven ministry.

    At least 3 years of being mentored by a Senior Pastor in a Bible believing,Soul winning, sin hating,loving church.That would also include learning how to develop,prepare,& deliver sermons.

    Remember it is not churchianity. It is Christianity. There are very few pastors I know who have a proiven record of discipling others. If you want to find out about them see them in action and notice their fruit.

    Of course more could be added but these are what I would consider fundamental skills and knowledge needed to pastor a church. Any Bible Institute, college,or seminary that does not see to it at least these skills ,knowledge base, and experience level exist has failed in it's mission.

    The basic practical aspect of discipleship can be taught to an elementary school student. It can built upon in the high school years and perfected in the church. I have seen many who have discipled others in high school before they have entered college.

    Discipleship and evangelism, the basics of the Christian life, are not graduate level courses but the very basics of the Christian life, which should be taught at the church level. It should not be the responsibility of the seminary to teach such a basic level that the church have already done but to prepare leaders for ministry.

    I have taught elementary and high school students how to disciple another person their own age. Why should the seminary teach something I was taught by a fellow college student immediately after I became a believer as a college freshman? Seminaries are graduate schools not elementary schools. Even in the military everybody goes through basic training before advanced training. So should it be in the real world of Christianity. The basics of the Chrstian life such as evangelism and discipoleship should be the responsibility of the church and should be a proven requirement before anyone is considered for acceptance into a seminary. The prerequisite of entrance into every seminary program should be proven ministry in evangelism and discipleship.

    Sometime read http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
     
  5. Plain Old Bill

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    Dear GB93433,
    I could,nt agree with you more. I'm just saying it takes more than just one thing to complete an education.Full training requires an attack from several directions.
    Also you could'nt be more right that personal evangelism and basic discipleship should be taught in the church an Sunday school.To many Christians are turned into mormons and Jehovah witnesses due to a lack of good discipleship.
    Although we never known how many (if a number is needed)are won to Christ we do need to be busy making introductions and discipling.
    As to the mentoring again I agree with you.In that regard one should be as careful selecting the mentor as they are a Bible college or seminary,or for that matter in finding a church to join.
    RandR God bless you my friend I will be sending up prayers for you ,that God blesses you,your family, and what He has called you to do.

    Thankyou both for your input.
     
  6. Paul33

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    After seminary I started a church in Wisconsin and saw many saved/discipled.

    Pastored an existing church.

    Associate pastor of a church, people saved/discipled.

    Pastored a church in the south. Incredibly difficult church to win people to Christ. Everyone is already "saved" though they live like the devil.

    Started another church in Nebraska. People saved/discipled.

    How many? Only God knows.
     
  7. Plain Old Bill

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    What parts of your training served you best?
     
  8. gb93433

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    Each part had a different function. Each part was a new learning experience.

    Probably the most practical and influential was when I was involved with The Navigators.
     
  9. TexasSky

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    RandR - Is it possible for you to explain in a simplified post what you have learned about Soteriology at the graduate level which you did not know going in?
     
  10. Plain Old Bill

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    GB93433, that was very hands on was'nt it?
     
  11. Paul33

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    In Bible college I learned to go door to door and try to win someone to Christ by saying a prayer whether the person wanted to or not. I had to at least present the gospel. I used the Romans Road, attempted to get people to agree at each verse, and then asked them if they wanted to accept Christ!

    The joke is that it was man-centered salesmanship. We talked alot about that in class.

    Our job is to present the Gospel. Why do I have to know if they prayed a prayer? So I can put a notch in my Bible and say at the funeral that so and so prayed a salvation prayer? IMO, this is foolishness.

    Preach, witness, leave the results to God.

    In seminary, I didn't have to take the evangelism class, but I know that they were doing the same thing.

    I learned Hebrew in seminary.
    I learned that there were Bible-believing Christians from all sorts of denominations who loved God as much as I did.
    I learned from that experience that fundamentalistic separatism was complete nonsense. Under their practice, almost all Christians were off limits for fellowship.
     
  12. Plain Old Bill

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    Of course you are right God only knows who is saved. It is our duty to make the introduction and leave the rest up to God.
    It is sad that some fundamentalists are that way. I think we need to resort to historic fundamentalism. I would be more of the mind of R.A. Torrey and the other contributors to the classic "The Fundamental".
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    You should get your money back from this wasted education and learn the truth.
     
  14. Paul33

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    [​IMG] Hey, Larry, are you stalking me? [​IMG]
     
  15. Paul33

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    Larry's brand of fundamentalism requires that just about anyone who doesn't believe exactly as he does about theology, ecclesiology, eschatology, soteriology is off limits.

    I earned my M.Div. at TEDS after studying at NBBC and BJU.

    Where did you earn your M.Div. at Larry? You sound like a DBTS kind of guy.
     
  16. Paul33

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    Ditto. Guys like Machen.
     
  17. RandR

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    Texas Sky,
    I chose the word "explored" intentionally. For instance, already "believed" in justification by faith, etc.

    In seminars we studied the history of the doctrine of justification from a pre-Reformation RCC understanding through the Reformation, Trent, and into the "modern" era. Also explored various soteriological themes (universality of sin, election, grace, justification, regeneration, sanctification, glorification, etc.) in Scripture.

    That explanation doesn't really do it justice, but that's the concise version.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Paul indicates that he has no idea what my "brand of fundamentalism" even is. What exactly does that mean? I think Paul is waxing eloquent in judgmentalism worthy of fundamentalism. The truth is that most of the guys I konw that I would consider "friends" are very quick to admit that we don't know it all, and that people who don't see things our particular way are people who love God and are trying to please him. Unfortunately, there are some crazy "fundamentalists," who I won't associate with at all, who come from these wanna be Bible colleges who don't know much, but don't know that they don't know much. Those are the people to watch out for.
     
  19. Paul33

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    Alright, Larry,

    Let's do a crusade together! Are you in? I'll come to your town and do a revival with you. We can both preach, alternating every other night! [​IMG]
     
  20. gb93433

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    Very much. But the seminary training filled in some gaps I had. It allowed me to teach others better and avoid arguments because I had the tools to get the answers much quicker and better. Seminary training also allowed me to read the Bible and understand more because I knew the background of the books of the Bible much better.

    I see no reason why Christians shouldn't be intellectually sharp, doctrinally sound and practically faithful. After all, wasn't Jesus all of those?
     

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