Obama or Clinton = Socialist Tyranny

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Revmitchell, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    The insipid desire for bigger government amongst liberals just never ends. What a disappointing choice we have as conservatives. We can vote for John (open borders, amnesty, work with Ted Kennedy) McCain or we can vote for tyrant #1) Barack (government will be your momma) Obama, or tyrant #2) Hillary (crying to show I am not lying) Clinton.



    http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3106/Rev_Dr_David_M_Berman_ThD
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    Wow


    <personal attack deleted - LE>:tonofbricks:
     
    #2 Crabtownboy, Feb 15, 2008
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  3. Martin

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    Politics oftens makes us forget how we are to deal with those who disagree with us. Politics often makes us forget that the Lord Jesus Himself was kind towards those who violently opposed Him. As God He rightly judges them, but while on earth He loved His enemies.

    Why does politics cause us to forget these things? Because politics causes us to get our minds off what really matters.

    There is nothing wrong with good, healthy debate on the social/political issues of our day. However when that debate becomes "venom" there is a problem.
     
    #3 Martin, Feb 15, 2008
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  4. Crabtownboy

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    Amen

    Martin ... Amen and AMEN
     
  5. Martin

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    ==Many conservatives desire big government as well. Look at the number who would like to grow the size and power of government for social reasons. Conservatives, and liberals, need to learn that government is not there to solve our problems or be our safety net.



    ==First, lets get our FACTS straight. After all we are Christians who represent the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life (Jn 14:6). John McCain does support securing the borders. As for "amnesty", I am not sure what you wish to do with all the illegal immigrants who are already here. Do you wish to round them up like Hitler rounded up the Jews and deport them? Do you really think that solution would solve any problem? I hope you don't. The reality of the situation is that they are here. Now, what are we going to do? I suspect you will label as amnesty any plan that offers a realistic and humane solution to the problem. As for working with Ted Kennedy, how dare he?!?! How dare members of our government try to work together to pass legislation! Seriously, I am no fan of Ted Kennedy but I see nothing wrong with Republicans working with him when they can.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Bigger government is not a conservative postion.



    Yes. Let us get the facts straight. McCains idea of border security is weak and therefore unacceptable as any reasonable security at all. Amnesty does not offer any plan at all other than to ignore the law, ignore our conhtries soveriegnty, and continue to allow people here who spit on us rather than make any attempt to assimilate. And "rounding them up" is a strawman argument. It is not even necessary to consider. When Ted Kennedy wants to take on conservative policies we can work with him.
     
  7. Crabtownboy

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  8. Revmitchell

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  9. billwald

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    Better a socialist tyranny than the present military junta.
     
  10. Martin

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    ==Please explain, based on the fact of McCain's current plan, why his "idea of border security is weak and...unacceptable as any reasonable security" of the border. I think McCain's plan works.

    "A secure border is an essential element of our national security. Tight border security includes not just the entry and exit of people, but also the effective screening of cargo at our ports and other points of entry." -John McCain

    ==McCain's position does not ignore the law. John McCain believes that the Federal Government has, to this point, failed to secure our borders and that it has therefore lost the trust that "Americans should have in the basic competency of their government". McCain's plan involves securing the borders and then dealing with the illegals who are in this country at the present time. McCain understands that a secure border is not just a matter of law but that it is also "an essential element of our national security". Because of the importance of this issue it must be handled with care and grace. I trust that John McCain has the maturity, experience, and ability to do both.


    ==Since McCain's plan includes securing our borders, including ports, I don't see how his plan ignores our country's sovereignty. Talking points cannot over-ride the fact that McCain's plan is a good plan and a plan that conservatives, mainly Christian conservatives, can support.

    ==McCain's plan calls for the "assimilation of our immigrant population, which includes learning English, American history and civics, and respecting the values of a democratic society". So, once again, you are wrong on the basic facts.


    ==Ok, but I have not read your solution to the problem. As I said, I suspect that any solution that is realistic and humane you will label as amnesty.


    ==In other words you don't wish our leaders to work together. You want America to be a "house divided". That house, my friend, will not stand. We need our leaders to work together when they can. That does not mean that anyone has to compromise on their fundamental principles. It just means that when they can work together they should. Our founding fathers believed that, that is what is taught in Scripture, and that is what I believe.

    John McCain's position on immigration and border security
     
    #10 Martin, Feb 15, 2008
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  11. StefanM

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    Today's conservative is yesterday's moderate and the day before's liberal.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Because it disrespects the law. We let them have amnesty in the 80's with reagan and now we want to do it again. Each time we do that we are telling them their behavior is acceptable. Sneak in illegally and do not get caught until we decide to ignore the law and everythign will be ok. Doing this says our laws on our borders mean nothing. And any further calls from justice by those who support this would be hypocriticle.



    Failing to enforce the law that has been broken is ignoring the law. Simply recognizing that the law is broken is not enough. There must be consequences. Or there is no rrespect for the law. Not by our enemies and not by our citizens.


    And what you are professing is his personal stumping talking points. What has he done to accomplish those things he says he will do thus far.

    I live with them. Illegals are a large part of this community as a result of the cattle rances and the orange groves. If this is in fact what he really intendds then McCain is in a drwam world. They for the most part do not want to assimilate. Nor do they want to respect the values of a democratic society which is evidenced by their bypassing our democratic laws on the border. Until they show a willingness to obey the laws to include our borders they have no credibility to claim they want to do anything else.


    Enforce the laws on the books and add steeper fines on employers who hire illegals. Cut off all benefits. They will go home on their own and we will not have spent a dime.

    Their ultimate goal is socialism. That is un-American and not Patriotic. Until they repent of their socialist agenda their should be no working with them. I can see working with real Democrats like Zell Miller. But the rest are neo-Dems.
     
    #12 Revmitchell, Feb 15, 2008
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  13. saturneptune

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    Don't believe all profiles. Anyone can type in anything under occupation.
     
    #13 saturneptune, Feb 15, 2008
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  14. saturneptune

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    Which candidate meets your high standards and deserves your vote?
     
  15. saturneptune

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    If Alan Keyes, Duncan Hunter, Tom Tencredo, Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, or any other conservative had won the Republican nomination, you would have found fault. Never once, not once, have you had anything to say in support of any candidate.

    You do not have a clue. I would suggest you go back and reread the Constitution, and take an on-line political science class.
     
    #15 saturneptune, Feb 15, 2008
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  16. Martin

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    ==McCain's plan is not amnesty. I don't know why some people seem to think that we can spend years getting ourselves into a problem and then get out of it overnight. Reality just is not like that. Our government has spent years creating this immigration problem. It will not be solved overnight and it certainly will not be solved by nice little neat slogans or programs. This is a long standing, very complex, problem which will take a lot of work and time to fix. You think McCain's plan is amnesty because you fail to realize how complex the issue is.


    ==McCain, as I have pointed out, does not support "looking the other way". McCain has a plan to start solving the problem.


    ==You are putting McCain in a no win situation. He is blasted if he does and blasted if he does not. Look, McCain has put forward a mature, careful plan on how to start dealing with this issue. It is not amnesty, it is not ignoring the law, it is trying to fix the problems our government has spent years creating.

    ==McCain's plan does more than note that there is a problem. His plan offers steps he plans to take to correct the problems.

    ==What has anyone done? Nothing. The Clinton administration did nothing, this administration has done very little, none of the senators have done anything. The next President, who I hope is John McCain, will be starting on the ground floor. I am glad McCain is willing to start there. This is a complex problem that can only be fixed one step at a time.


    ==Don't talk to me about living around illegal immigrants. Southeastern North Carolina is flooded with them. I live in a small town and I would be willing to bet that the number of illegal immigrants rivals the number of legal citizens in this town and county. They are working on almost every farm, every blueberry field, every tobacco field, and on many construction clean up crews. The problem is huge and that is why I know that quick and easy solutions will not work. It is really easy for you (or anyone else) to get on your soap box and proclaim the need to "enforce the law". I agree with you. However I realize that setting up the system in which we can enforce the law is going to take time and work. It is going to take democrats and republicans working together trying to figure out the best way forward. I believe John McCain's plan is a reasonable start.


    ==How do you know this? Have you polled them? Most of the illegal immigrants I run into are willing to assimilate. Those that are not willing, and I am certain that there are large numbers, would be given a choice under McCain's plan. Assimilate or leave. McCain's plan does what you are saying needs to be done yet you still condemn his plan. Like I said, you seem to be putting McCain into a no win situation.

    ==That sounds nice, and to a large degree I agree, however that is not solving any problem. Well packaged statements like that will not help solve the very complicated issues that come with the illegal immigration situation. We have to deal with reality, the real world, and stop pretending things are the way we wish they were.

    ==Ok, I agree that needs to be done. I believe McCain has also mentioned this. However that will probably solve only a small part of the problem. What about the illegal immigrants who work for small farmers (etc) who are paid in cash? The government does not know those people work for that farm and there is no paper trail. Many police departments don't have the time or resources to go farm to farm, field to field, looking for illegals. And in rural towns farmers are not going to report each other. What about the 19yr old whose parents are illegal but, because he/she was born in the United States, he/she is legal. Are you going to split up the family? Are you going to strip him/her of his citizenship after 19 years? What about younger children and their parents? What about the grandchildren of illegal immigrants? They are citizens. Are you going to strip them of their citizenship? I could go on and on. My point is only to say that this is a very complex problem for which easy answers will not work.

    I quoted McCain's plan a lot to show you that your representation of his plan was/is wrong. I also quoted it a lot because I agree with it. McCain's plan is solid and conservative. It also realizes how complex this issue is. I am afriad that too many conservatives are living in a dream world on this issue.
     
    #16 Martin, Feb 15, 2008
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  17. Martin

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    The website Revmitchell linked to in the OP makes the following statement:

    ==I wonder where in the New Testament he finds such a command or mission. I have to wonder that because I don't see that in the New Testament. I don't see Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, or any of the other disciples trying to "confront the culture" with "Judeo-Christian principles". What I DO see them doing is preaching the Gospel. We are called to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. We are not called to spread "Judeo-Christian principles" (whatever those are). When I hear the phrase "Judeo-Christian principles" I think of Christians trying to get nonChristians to live like Christians. That is like washing a pig and expecting it to stay washed! It does not work because that is not how it is suppose to be done.

    I agree with Dr. John MacArthur's answer to the question: "Is there any mandate in Scripture for the church to try to organize political coalitions and work for moral reform in secular society through social activism?". MacArthur's answer, throughout the book, is NO!. He makes the point: "Restoring Christian symbols to public places would be only cosmetic...Legislation to promote moral reform is too superficial to be a real solution. The moral decline in America is merely the symptom of our nations' spiritual malaise...The cure for America's spiritual ills is not merely reform of some laws and policies. The real solution is one that strikes at the root of the problem. It is a solution that answer the problem of sin...To be perfectly clear: Morality and even religion per se will not invite or secure the blessing of God. Morality and religion alone will not gain our nation an ounce of Divine favor." (Can God Bless America, pg 74-76).
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    Well since you seem to understand the complexities fill me in.




    I disagree



    It clearly is ignoring the law if they do not suffer the consequences of crossing the border illegally.

    What has he done as Sneator. What bills has he put forward. Ron Paul has contradicted himslef on earmarks but he has done something as congressman that shows what he would have done a President. McCain has not on the illegal imigration except his amnesty bill.

    Comparing him to failures is not a way to prove your point.

    Reagans plan for amnesty was a start also. I want to see the back end as well. Cut off public benefits, enforce hiring policies and they will go home.


    I do not trust him to enforce even that much. If they dont assimliate how will that be determined and what will be the steps to enforce that? What will happen is the lack of assimilation will be ignored and they will be given free citizenship.

    It isn't all that complicated. That is the real world.


    If they have children they should take them with them. Who said anything about stripping anyone of citizenship. this is the same type of hyperbole used when people talk about rounding them up. No one suggested any such thing and it is obviously not necessary. But it appears to be rhetoric used to inflame emotions on the issue rather than actually deal with the facts.

    It is amnesty, it is wrong, and it is not conservative.
     
  19. Martin

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    I can't discuss this issue with you because you just keep denying the obvious. Its like talking with someone who is looking directly into the sun and saying "I don't see any light". :BangHead:
     
  20. saturneptune

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    Agreed, like talking to a box of rocks.
     

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