Obama's 'shocking' and 'explosive' links

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Revmitchell, May 21, 2008.

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  1. Revmitchell

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    Barack Obama's alleged socialist and communist connections will be the highlight of a planned news conference to be held in Washington in late May.


    Story Here
     
  2. Magnetic Poles

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    To quote our beloved Veep, So? Any yayhoo can call a news conference.
     
  3. Crabtownboy

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    And we know what a saint Milosevic was.

    http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:75pOdx-WJk0J:mediamatters.org/items/200512100001+%22Cliff+Kincaid%22&hl=cs&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=cz

    I sure would not put any credibility in what good old boy Cliff says. :laugh:
     
  4. Andre

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    Would you please tell us precisely what you think socialism and why you think it is so bad. My reading of the New Testament suggests to me that Jesus promoted a "socialist" way of ordering society and that the early saints lived according to a socialist model.

    But, perhaps you understand the term "socialism" differently. Please tell us what you think solialism is and why it goes against the gospel.
     
  5. Crabtownboy

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    The early church in Jerusalen was a commune-ist society were all things were held in common.
     
  6. donnA

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    Andre=
    This is what it is. And it isn't biblical.


    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism


    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/551569/socialism


    http://www.bartleby.com/65/so/socialis.html
     
  7. Crabtownboy

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    I am curious Donna, if it isn't Biblical why is it in the Bible describing the early Christian church in Jerusalem? All things were held in common. Remember the couple who sold the piece of land and did not give all to the church for use in helping everyone.

    It is Biblical, but it didn't work very well and I doubt a true Socialist society will every work really well.
     
  8. Andre

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    Can you defend your assertion that the above is not Scriptural. I think that the Jubilee Laws from Leviticus effectively promote the collectivist principles of "socialism"

    "'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind [a] from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God

    Now feel feel to critique my take on this text. But you stated that "socialsim" as per your definition was unBiblical.

    Please give us some scriptural evidence to support your position.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Forgiveness of debt is a far cry from collectivism. All things in common does not imply government mandated slavery. Which is exactly what socialism/communism is. Forcing one person to work to support someone else.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    It appears you misunderstand this acts passage :

    They lied about giving all the money for the property even though they did not need to give it all.
     
  11. Andre

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    I find it strange that so many people do not see how Jesus' teaching advocated for a "collectivist" or "socialist" way of structuring society.

    And the Jubilee laws effectively implement "government forcing one person to work for another". This is not so hard to see:

    'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind [a] from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit.

    This is a mandate to help the poor and to do so without charging interest. If I lend Fred $ 100 and do not charge him interest, I am indeed "working to support him". This is because I have to work to make the $ 100 and if I give it to him at no interest, I am losing some of the rewards of my own work - the interest that I might have accrued if I had invested the money, etc.

    And the Jubilee Law was not optional - it was the "law of the land". So I find it curious that so many argue that the government should not be in the business of "taking from the rich and giving to the poor".

    This is precisely what the Jubilee Law, from God's own mouth is accomplishing - mandating that the labours of some support others.
     
  12. donnA

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    socialism has nothing to do with helping the poor, giving fred $100.
    it's a form of government rule, where government takes everything you have,where everyone is poor, and no one has $100 to loan fred, it is the beginnings of communism.

    The labors of some do support others in this country, and then christians argue against helping people.
    It's called taxes and welfare, and or feeding programs.
    As a side note, based on past posts on these forums, not everyone who needs help at one time or another is lazy and likes being unable to help themselves.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    You mention Jesus' teachings and then quote OT Law. Which is it.
     
  14. Andre

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    Absolutely untrue. There are many countries which implement a socialist scheme that are as wealthy as the US.

    Besides, the Jubilee laws, ordained by God, are themselves "the law of the land" - they are an example of the government "meddling in my business". And yet this is precisely what God has mandated. The Christian who wants to argue that God does not want His principles enshrined in law has the Scriptures against him / her.

    All authority has been given to Jesus - and that includes authority over the laws of the land.
     
    #14 Andre, May 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2008
  15. Andre

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    The fact that you see this as an "either / or" decision suggests that you and I do not have the same understanding of what the Scriptures teach (as if that was not otherwise obvious).

    I see no fundamental disconnect between the principles that undergird OT law and the teachings of Jesus.

    Do you?
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    The only wealth redistribution I see in scripture is when the talent was taken away from the lazy dude, and given to the rich dude. It is just not true that the bible supports socialism. The only God-installed form of government was judges to make sure people's rights did not get violated. People invented the rest of them, and there's been nothing but trouble ever since.
     
  17. Andre

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    What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost

    People will try to collapse this into an issue of "salvation" only and ignore the implications for how we are to order and run our world.

    Yet this text embodies a value which is deeply "socialist" - the idea that the 99 are to some extent disadvantaged in service of the one.

    Make no mistake - we cannot take this text seriously and advocate for running our society in a manner where government is not involved in ensuring that every person is cared for.

    If we say "that's only the job of the church - and that the government should not be in the task of ensuring that all are cared for" - we effectively retreat from our task of implementing Jesus' authority over all.
     
  18. Bro. Curtis

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    Not going to debate you, Andre, debates with you never go anywhere. My post was to people who want to see another viewpoint than yours.
     
  19. Revmitchell

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    How convenient. Did Jesus reference these OT laws as being applicable today.
     
  20. Andre

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    The specific laws passed away with covenant renewal effected by Jesus' death and reesurrection. But the principle is timeless. Besides, even if we did not have the OT, Jesus' teachings alone inform us about how we need to order our society.

    And, of course, people interested in preserving their wealth and power will dance around the parable of the 100 sheep - abstracting it into an issue about salvation only and ignoring the sharp and disturbing "political" implications about how we are to run our society.

    Or they will deflect any applicibality to themselves of Jesus' statement to the rich young ruler about giving all to the poor.

    You want convenient? That's convenient.
     
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