Obedience, some thoughts.....

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by donnA, Feb 9, 2004.

  1. donnA

    donnA
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    With the mass flood recently of new people on the BB who insist one person or another is not being obedient or is disobedient or is not as righteous as them, has made me think.
    Think about obedience to God. If we are obedient because someone told us what we should be doing in order to be in their opinion a 'good Christian', then are we really being obedient to God? Aren't we really trying to please men rather then God? I've seen women here (at different times in the past) decide to cover their heads, or wear dresses only because of pressure from other women(both here and those they know in person) telling them they weren't good enough for God if they did not, God would not bless them and answer their prayers if they did not. Shouldn't real obedience come from the heart, a desire to obey God simply because He is God? If obedience is to the opinions of people and what they say scripture says, then can that be pleasing to God?(please take this in context). If it's outward obedience because of pressure form others then it isn't true obedience to God, but obedience to man. If in fact we are doing something wrong won't God Himself teach us to do right? Won't He convict? To me conviction comes when it comes from scripture when God has shown me something, and then tells me I am not doing this His way. Conviction is not up to man to do, that is the work of God alone. The bible says that the Holy Spirit convicts, why do some think they need to help the Holy Spirit? As God grows and matures us He always shows us our sin, and short comings, where we need to do something differently to be in obedience, and as we grow we will want to hear God telling us this. People grow in different ways at different times, God uses different things to grow each of us, what has caused me spiritual growth in the past may not cause growth for me again, or it may not even be something God uses in another persons life for their spiritual growth. We are all different,and God works with us differently, and uses us differently, He grows us differently to be different people to accomplish different things.
    If we can't lovingly help someone, without being judgmental and abusive, to recognize sin in their lives then we should keep our mouths shut. God may not desire to use us to point out sin to someone, He may have another plan for someone else to do that, who may be able to help more by being more loving about it. Absence of a caring loving heart in this matter is not right, if you can not do it from love of the person and of God, then do not do it. If we do it only because we like to be bale to judge others and point out their faults, then we can know we are wrong and sinning ourselves. Lets let God do what only God can truly do. We are not the one whose job it is to convict, nor is it our job to bash people in to what we consider obedience.
    Just a thought to those who go around telling others how bad a Christian they are, your judgmental spirit is sin also and you need to recognize that.
    No one has to meet another's own personal standards, and no one is going to be answerable to another person. So lets keep God where He belongs in this matter, and us where we belong, instead of trying to take His place.
    God bless
     
  2. russell55

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    This is soooo funny. I was just going to start a thread on pretty much the same subject. Here are some things I have seen pronounced sin in the past few days right here on the BB: </font>
    • Dating</font>
    • Not supporting specific methods in the fight against pornography</font>
    • Being at one's computer late on Saturday night</font>
    • Being a woman cop</font>
    • Telling any jokes</font>
    • Laughing at any jokes</font>
    And of course, there are the old stand-bys: Reading from the wrong version of the Bible, being saved using the wrong version of the Bible.

    There are probably more, but I grow weary....and bored.

    Last time I checked, sin-sniffing (in others, anyway) was not listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit. Maybe I should check again....Let's see...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...Nope, still not there.
     
  3. Walls

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    Hey Donna, glad you brought this up. The last time I brought up such thread I was some what chastised.

    God works on people differently. Some people can be shown clear scripture concerning a topic, and deny its' meaning while others accept some and not others and then there are always those who say that is for the culture in that day and doesn't apply.

    If someone is disobedient to God and they have been blood bought they will know it. ;)
     
  4. donnA

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    LOL great post. sin sniffing LOL, thats a good one.

    It is some of the somethings you mentioned that have started me thinking on this subject. I have
    been trying to be more guarded myself on judging others hearts based on my opinion of scripture. I believe only God can do a work of the heart.
     
  5. donnA

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    walls, the good thing is I don't have to try and be obedient to anyones opinion. God will tell me when I am doing something wrong.
    If I can't help someone by pointing out lovingly to them scripture I will leave it to someone else who can. When people don't want to accept it, sometimes theres a problem with us, in that case God may not allow us to be the one to help them.
     
  6. Walls

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    You are right about that. But even done in love people reject it.

    Think about all the people that rejected Christ, wasn't He doing it with a lovingly attitude. He wanted people to know that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, but they just couldn't bring themselves to believe it. That is a pretty clear message. You either except it or not.

    You can always lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it!
     
  7. drp737

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    I was thinking recently myself about Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, and I was reading the old laws and it came to my mind that if we can disregard some of those laws, do we completely disregard those books. I should probably know the answer to this already, but I've never studied the books of law before and where they fit in the new testament church. What do you all think? Were all of those laws condensed into "love thy neighbor as thyself" or are we still supposed to take some of them to heart?
     
  8. donnA

    donnA
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    If they reject we are not responsible for their choice. But we are responsible for how we handle it.
     
  9. donnA

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    The difference is between law and grace. Grace is that we do nothing to earn anything form God, law is works, it's an attempt to earn. We no longer have to earn( no one was ever able to earn anything form God, especially salvation) becasue of Jesus. I don't think depending on God's grace is not not taking anything to heart. Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We couldn't, didn't won't, Jesus did it for me.
     
  10. drp737

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    So should we be able to eat unclean meats or not? And if it's not wrong to eat unclean meats anymore, then what other laws are no longer needed because of God's grace. Should we not eat unclean meats, because it would be a logical fallacy to say that it is still wrong to eat them but because Jesus has already suffered for those sins, God's grace is upon us and we no longer have to worry about committing them. Just a thought provoking question. I would like a reference to the chapter and verse where God told Peter that it was ok to eat unclean meat. I've been looking today but I haven't found it yet.
     
  11. drp737

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    Ah, Finally found it with a little help from my brother. Acts 10 starting with verse 9. Peter has three visions of wild beasts with the Lord telling him to kill and eat one. Yet as I read it in it's full context, it says more about being Christ-like to me than it does about obeying or disobeying any laws. Peter was told this so that he would know that it was ok for him to mingle with people of other faiths and nationalities as Jesus did when he met the woman at the well. Jesus routinely broke or bent Jewish laws and customs, in order to be able to witness to more people and bring more people to know God. So I believe it is more of why we do what we do, and with what frame of mind and with what ultimate goal, than it is actually what we do. So the point is to try to love your neighbors and be Christ-like, not in the religious cliche sense of the word, but in the true sense of the word. To actually think about how Jesus acted in similar situations and act accordingly. That is all God wants from us. Well, it is getting quite late here, so I must be going.
     
  12. Walls

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    drp you are right.

    Christ went into all the world and spoke to many people. We are supposed to dwell in this world yet not partake of its ways. Christ was a perfect example of this. He never sinned even when he was among the sinners.

    Grace is what saved us and is what keeps us, but it is never an excuse to live in disobedience to God. Does that mean we can live without sinning, absolutely not. But it doesn't give us license to be disobedient.

    If God said love your neighbor, then love your neighbor. If He said love your enemies, then love your enemies. If He said women are to be chaste, then women be chaste. If He said the Man is to be head of the woman, then men be the head.

    Do these things apply to culture? If these aren't cultural things then why are others cultural? Why would God put things in His word that He wouldn't want us to take note of and apply to our lives? I don't believe God does anything in vain.

    The Bible says that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction and in righteousness. Was this a lie? Should it have read all scripture is for historical and cultural purposes, therefore you can pick and choose which scripture you choose to live by?

    Yes Christ fulfilled the law, but I sure aint going to worship idols, or steal people blind because I have grace. And in this day and age that we live in now, I am going to look as much like a women as I can. God created male and female. He put a distinction between the two and I sure aint going to be mistaken for some lesbian male counterpart! :eek:
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    One must evaluate the OT Books are seen them as examples ("ensamples" in AV, whatever that is). We are FREE FROM THE LAW and do not have to follow the rigid Mosaic code of conduct, and as others pointed out, this was really tough for Peter.

    In reading the Torah (books of the Law) one must evaluate each law to see if it is a:
    Eternal principle or law still good to follow
    National principle or law for the nation of Israel
    Ceremonial principle or law for the Jewish religion (sacrifices, etc)
     
  14. donnA

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    This is very helpful Dr. Bob. Some are difficult to know the difference, I think we discussed this last year, how do we know the difference if we are having trouble knowing which of these categories they fit in?
     
  15. Lorelei

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    You are having trouble because you are trying to fit them into man made categories. You will not find the law divided in scripture. It is always referred to as the "law", which we were freed from.

    ~Lorelei
     
  16. donnA

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    You are having trouble because you are trying to fit them into man made categories. You will not find the law divided in scripture. It is always referred to as the "law", which we were freed from.

    ~Lorelei
    </font>[/QUOTE]Not having any trouble, these are my thoughts exactly.
    Law or grace, but never both.
     
  17. Lorelei

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    Amen to that, otherwise grace would no longer be grace!

    ~Lorelei
     
  18. Walls

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    I am just curious, if the lands that we live in were to declare that all laws were to be removed and the only thing we had to keep in my mind was "Do to others as you would have them do to you", how would the people behave?

    Wouldn't they do whatever they deemed right in their own eyes?
     

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