Obey every ordinance of man

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
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    As a pastor of over 20 years, I have consistently been nonpolitical(never lifting one party above another), but with that in mind, I have always asked myself the question, “what would I have done 200 years ago, when the people of this nation took up arms against an unjust government?”

    As we all know, God hates rebellion, but could it have been that God may have seen, that the government of England had no real authority over the people over here?

    Any way, I have said all of this because of what the Bible says about man’s laws.....
    1 Peter 2:13
    “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;”

    In the United States of America, this is a reference to our constitution;
    (Every ordinance that is voted into law here, must be constitutional.)
    --------------------------------------------------
    In light of this truth, could it be that 1 Peter 2:13 commands us, to take up arms against those who trash our constitution?

    This is a serious question, because of the way that today’s political winds are blowing.

    Someday soon, each of us(in America), may be faced with this question.
     
  2. Sakuras

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    Hello,

    I don't know what an "unjust government" is. Today, they are all unjust. I guess it depends on what the masses deem unjust. Maybe one day the nation will take up arms against a government who supports religion being spoken in public - very unjust to them and obtuse thinking that corrupts the advancement of society - who knows.
     
  3. Graybeard

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    As a Pastor of over 20 years will you be silenced by "hate crime" laws forbidding you to say from the pulpit, that homosexuality is a sin? Would you be willing to give up the church's tax exempt status in order to preach the truth?

    If man's law is in direct contradiction of God's law, obey God's law regardless of the cost, prepare to preach from a jail cell if it comes to that.
     
  4. canadyjd

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    I don't see any evidence in scripture that Christians are commanded or encouraged to resort to violence to solve problems.

    I see just the opposite. Christians are commanded not to resort to evil when faced with evil, but rather to pray for those who persecute.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. Aaron

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    Your answer is in the entirety of the Scriptural reference: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

    Paul also said that rulers are not a terror to good works.

    When a government becomes a terror to good works, when they punish them that do well (the afore-mentioned hate-crimes laws) and praise the evildoers (as they do Sodom), then they are no longer rulers. They are tyrants and usurpers and must be resisted.
     
  6. stilllearning

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    Hello canadyjd

    Nice to hear from you.

    I see and understand your reference to Matthew 5:44, and sure enough if this was all that the Bible had to say on this subject, than our response would be clear.

    But long ago I have had to reject the teachings of Pacifism, based upon what the Bible says, in it’s entirety.
    --------------------------------------------------
    My OP had less to do with the question of taking up arms, being right or wrong;
    But mainly about the issue of rebelling against authority.

    Romans 13, talks about being subject to the higher powers. But I see our mandate to respect authority, as being more than simply respecting someone who may have power.
    --------------------------------------------------
    One more thing; I see the teachings of pacifism, as a dangerous and unbiblical teaching.
    Anyone has the right to be a pacifist if they choose; But we shouldn’t pretend that it is a Biblical position.


    Thanks for your input.
     
  7. stilllearning

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    Hello Aaron

    Thanks for the conformation.

    I have studied the exact same scriptures and have come to the exact same conclusion and interpretation as you have.

    One reason that I come here, is for a kind of sounding board;
    Making sure that I am not going to seed, in any particular area.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Although God in His Word, does not guarantee, that we will live in a free country;
    There are some indications, that if we do have freedom, we should “try” to keep it.

    1 Corinthians 7:20-24
    V.20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
    V.21 Art thou called [being] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [it] rather.
    V.22 For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, [being] free, is Christ’s servant.
    V.23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
    V.24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

    --------------------------------------------------
    These are truly perilous times that we are living; And each of us need to be on our faces before the LORD, seeking His will for our lives.
     
  8. canadyjd

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    We are in a unique situation in the U.S., where we can resist without violence to bring about change in our government.

    Christians are never commanded or encouraged to engage in violence for political purposes.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  9. canadyjd

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    Much of the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ are pacifist in nature. Do you simply ignore what you don't want to believe?
    Forgive me, but you are not the final authority of what is Biblical and what is not.

    That you choose to ignore numerous passages of scripture which teach us that Christians are not to participate in violence is dangerous and obviously unbiblical.

    Islam has many teachers that encourage their followers to engage in violence to achieve political ends. They convince their followers that it is OK with God to do evil.

    Christians are called to be different.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Paul was under a horribly unjust government (killing Christians) and he made no exception about obedience and submission. I disagree that somehow a bad government justifies our disobedience.

    BTW, in the rebellion of 1776 I would have been loyal to my government - which is my STATE. Same in 1861.

    Sadly, since we lost the Civil War, we have forced loyalty to a Federal entity that has usurped my State's authority. If I don't obey the Feds, they can do really bad things to me!!

    The biggest enemy I have is the Federal Government of THIS country, not from Iran or Afghanistan.
     
  11. HankD

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  12. stilllearning

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    Hello canadyjd

    You said...........
    This is a ridiculous and insulting comparison.

    If I were to ever, take up arms against an illegitimate US government, it would have NOTHING to do with my faith in Christ.
    But it would have everything to do with freedom.

    You may not think that freedom is worth fighting for(and that is your prerogative), but to compare this possible decision, to the cold blooded killing that we see in Islam, is beyond words.
     
  13. Winman

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    Peter was commanded by the authorities not to preach Jesus, but he disobeyed.

    Acts 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
    19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
    20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.


    Peter and the other apostles continued to preach and heal after this and were arrested.

    Acts 5:25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
    26 Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
    27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
    28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
    29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


    Peter said we ought to obey God rather than men.
     
  14. stilllearning

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    Hello Dr. Bob

    You said........
    Sure enough, 2000 years ago(and many times since), Christians have been persecuted.
    But we don’t really know what Paul thought about it.

    All we have are the words that God gave him to write, as God was using him to give us parts of the New Testament.
    For all we know, Paul carried a sword on his belt. (This wouldn’t have disqualified him, from being used by the Lord to preach or to give us God’s Word.)

    This idea, that guns or fighting for freedom, is somehow ungodly or sinful, has no bases in fact. It is just the way some people “feel”.

    What I have been talking about in this thread, has nothing to do with Christian persecution at all.
    It has to do with, our freedom of speech, our freedom to keep and bear arms, our freedom of assembly, etc.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Those of us who are born again, are Christians, and we have been “born from above”, which makes us citizens of heaven.
    But while we are on this earth, living in the US, we are also citizens of the United States.

    I am not a trouble maker, I was just wanting to make sure, that dealing with a tyrannical government, would not be considered rebellion, in God’s site(according to His Word).

    And sure enough, the Bible is clear on this subject.

    As for the sensibilities of some on this board: I have said that you have the right to do(or not do), anything you want.
    As for me.....I don’t know what I am going to do just yet. I will have to wait and see how things turn out, and trust that the LORD will give me instructions in that time.
     
  15. canadyjd

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    First, it might be worth our while to repeat your initial post and compare it to what you are now saying:
    So, you quoted scripture and then suggested that the passage of scripture "....commands us, to take up arms against those who trash our constitution"

    Now, that appears to me that you are using God's Word to justify armed rebellion against "those who trash our constitution" (whatever that means).

    Therefore, you have clearly used scripture in an attempt to justify doing evil to accomplish political ends. That is exactly what some Muslems do with the Koran.

    Now, unless your faith in Christ has nothing to do with scripture, then your faith in Christ must have SOMETHING to do with your desire for armed rebellion for political purposes should you think it necessary.
    My freedom is in Christ. It cannot be taken from me by any government or any man.

    And whatever else you think about the value of freedom, the only thing that really matters is what Christ tells us in God's Word.

    And God's Word tells us not to rebel against governments. God's Word tells us not to repay evil for evil. God's Word tells us to pray for those who persecute us.

    Rebel against God's Word if you must. But don't pretend you are being biblical while you do it.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  16. HankD

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    It's not an easy call.

    A case can be made that everyone of us who chooses to remain a citizen of the United States of America has put our stamp of approval on an armed rebellion with bloodshed against the Crown.

    In another post, I gave a URL of an online copy of the Declaration of Independence.

    IMO, any American citizen who reads and approves of the document is part and parcel of the rebellion against the Crown.

    If one cannot approve of our foundational documents, then shouldn't one apply for citizenship to Great Britain? If not, why not?

    If we are to obey this government then it would seem that one would have to believe that God also approved of the armed rebellous inception of this nation.

    Prove my opinion wrong.

    Why was it scriptural to be a Loyalist (obeying the law of the Crown) then but not now?

    That aside; Actually, stilllearning is not too far off base. When I volunteered for military service, I took an oath to defend the Constitution and my country against all enemies "foreign or domestic".

    During a Civil war or "Rebellion" the definition of "domestic enemy" and "the officers appointed over me" can be a subjective call.


    HankD
     
  17. canadyjd

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    Let's see.... obey God's Word.....or....rebel against God's Word? Not an easy call?

    I agree that many Christians find it difficult to accept the truth of God's Word when it is contrary to what they want to believe, despite their professions of belief that the bible is God's revelation of Himself to His creation.
    That is no more true than saying everyone of us who chooses to remain a citizen of the United States of America has put our stamp of approval on the slaughter of untold millions of Native Americans, including women and children, for the sake of stealing their land.
    It is easily shown from scripture (Rom. 13 and others) that Christians are not to rebel against the government. It is easily shown from scripture that Christians are not to repay evil for evil (Rom. 12 and others). It is up to you to show us why scripture is wrong and you are right.

    So, to say God approved of Christians rebelling against a government is to have God contradicting His revealed Word.

    There is no doubt that God used the rebellion in the States to His purposes. God uses the evil of men to bring about good. Joseph was sent into slavery in Eygpt. His brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. God used their evil act to bring about His purposes.

    The same with the founding of America.

    Your call to Christ supercedes your oath to this country. You cannot serve two masters when devotion to the one is contrary to following the other.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. HankD

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    It seems you have tried to skirt the issue by bringing in the smokescreen of the Native Americans and our treatment thereof.

    The true issue: America is a nation born of a rebellion against the Crown of England.

    You need to immediately repatriate to Great Britain seeing your position against war and rebellion against a legitimate government..

    Incidently, I was unsaved when I joined the service.

    HankD
     
  19. HankD

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    As an addendum, I was saved while in the military almost 50 years ago.

    Today I would, if I could, still do my duty to my country and be willing to lay down my life for my fellow Americans.

    HankD
     
  20. stilllearning

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    Hi HankD

    Sorry for the delay in responding, but I have been gone.

    I commend you for your service to our nation, and although I have never been in any service, that called for me to take an oath to defend the constitution, I feel as you do, obligated to defend it.

    My OP, with it’s reference to the words found in 1Peter, still stands to make my point.

    For Americans, the constitution is our earthly king, that God has told us to obey.

    And the constitution tells us to that liberty is something that we should fight to retain.
    --------------------------------------------------
    My hesitancy to respond to canadyjd, was originally based upon the way, that my argument would sound;

    e.g. (Those like me who supported president Bush and the war in Iraq, were mostly silenced, so that we wouldn’t sound like we loved war.)
    Nobody in their right mind, loves war, or loves the idea of being forced to defend the constitution.

    But that is what it would have sounded like.
    --------------------------------------------------
    But now I see more clearly, that canadyjd is unreachable.

    I realized this, when I read his words.......
    Actually these are not his words at all. This is the propaganda that he has been fed, from those that are now running our government.
    --------------------------------------------------
    canadyjd, you may indeed be my brother in Christ, and therefore I love you and will pray for you.

    But what you see as a government that God commands you to submit to, is not really what the Bible is talking about, when it tells us.........
    “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”

    Applying 1Peter 2:13 to this discussion, is part of “rightly dividing the Word of truth”;

    The highest power in the United States, is the constitution.
    And that is the point being made by my OP.

    Now the constitution, is not the Bible, and it should not be lifted up above the Bible.
    But God’s Word makes it clear, that we are to obey it.
    --------------------------------------------------
    I praise the LORD that I was born in America, and truly appreciate the freedom and liberty that we have here.

    And although I feel compelled to state that America isn’t my God; I am reminded that the Bible teaches that God gave mankind government.
    Therefore God gave us our government and our constitution.

    So our defense of the constitution, is like being a good steward of something that God has given to us.
     

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