Obey every ordinance of man

Thanks SL, though our nation was born out of a war of rebellion, I believe it was justified in the sight of God.

In God We Trust.

Amen.

HankD

 

It wasn't a war of rebellion. Independence was declared by our statesmen to protect the population of which they were the guardians. God bless 'em.

 

That sure sounds better Aaron.

Thanks
HankD

 

I haven't skirted anything. I have attempted to show why your logic doesn't apply to this situation.

You have said that a Christian who chooses to remain a citizen of the United States is approving of the rebellion done to found the country. That is nonsense.

I was born in this country, and therefore a citizen. I can look at the founding of the country and say those men violated scripture when they rebelled against England. That is clearly demonstrated by scripture.

I don't have to agree with the murder of the Indians. I don't have to agree with slavery (which was legal under the constitution). I don't have to agree that only property owners where allowed to vote. I don't have to agree that women were not allowed to vote.

I don't have to approve of any of those things and still remain a citizen of the United States.

Since I have never been a patriot of Great Britian, it would be impossible for me to "repatriate".

Your argument is the smoke screen. Christians are commanded to be different. Christians are commanded not to rebel against their government.

peace to youraying:

 

Were they not disobeying religious authorities and not civil ones?

Also, they did not take up arms; they merely continued to preach the gospel. This is different from resorting to violence or deciding to overthrow a government or ruler.

(PS I am not a pacifist)

 

You have to realize that our country was first founded upon the Declaration of Independence. Here is part:

The men who wrote our Constitution also knew and agreed to the Declaration of Independence, which says that whenever a country falls under absolute Despotism, it is their right, even their duty to throw off such government.

 

Yes, I am not sure I agree with this. This is the Constitution, not the Bible. The Bible does not give this mandate at all.

The early Christians were under much worse rule than those in England and they did not try to overthrow the rulers or use violence against them.

This came up on another forum here not long ago - I think in Other Christian Denominations.

 

And when the soldiers came to take away Jesus when he was betrayed, he said to Peter that he could call on God who would send more than twelve legions of angels to protect him. He did not, because he had to go to the cross. But he seems to imply that otherwise he could have.

Matt 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

So here, I believe the scriptures are showing it is right to fight against the authorities when they are in the wrong. Jesus did not call on his Father to send angels to defend him because he was supposed to go to the cross. But Jesus seems to imply that it is right to resist evil.

 

For someone claiming to have been a pastor for 20 years, you are amazingly ignorant of scripture.

Paul wrote extensively on persecution. For example 2 Tim. 3:12 "And indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."

Rom. 12:17 "never pay back evil for evil to anyone..." (18) "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men."

Rom. 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities"

Paul wrote extensively on persecution. He said that Christians should expect to suffer as Christ suffered and should never respond with violence.

Your beliefs are clearly contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ found in scripture.

And that is all we need to know about what God desires of us concerning violence and rebellion, unless you don't believe what the bible says.

Do you believe what the bible says, pastor?

This "idea" is clearly taught in scripture. Your problem is with God's Word, which you cannot accept as truth, and therefore reject in favor of how you "feel".

When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, telling them to be subject to the government, the madman Nero was on the throne. Nero burned Christians alive on crosses to light his garden for a party.

Not only does your beliefs have no foundation in scripture, they have no foundation in history.

The LORD has already given you instructions, which you are rejecting in favor of worldly wisdom.

peace to youraying:

 

Jesus was showing who he was and the power He had! He was not saying we can use violence to overthrow governments. There is no sound way to apply this passage to overthrow of governments.

 

I think some Christians want to overthrow the government or be prepared to, and they are grasping at straws for biblical support. There isn't any.

 

We are never required to obey men (or paper) that is contrary to scripture.

FTR, I am always willing to hear anyone's argument and accept the possibility that I am wrong on a subject.

All I ask is that you show me why I am wrong from scripture. Your argument from scripture is to attempt to make the words of Peter in 2 Peter mean the opposite of what he says.

You claimed Peter is telling us to take up arms against "those who trash our constitution", when Peter is actually telling us to be in subjection to our government.

Propaganda? Are you telling me that millions of Native Americans were not killed by the Europeans that came to the country? Are you telling me treaties were not broken? Are you telling me their land was not stolen?

And who, exactly, fed me this propaganda?

OK, try to be candid, stilllearning.

I have told you in the past that you have a habit of smearing people ever so politely. This is a great example. You claim you are going to love me and pray for me, since I "may indeed be my brother in Christ".

Are questioning my salvation because I disagree with you on this issue? Just stated it plainly if you can.

Taking up arms (your words, not mine) against those who trash our constituion (your words, not mine) is contrary to scripture and is, therefore, evil. No amount of rationalization on your part will change the truth found in God's Word.

peace to youraying:

 

As always, you have a way of cutting right to the heart of the issue.:thumbs:

peace to youraying:

 

All I can say is thank God that pacifists are not in charge. We'd be speaking German or worse.

 

Yeh, we wouldn't want peace to break out all over the world now, would we?:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

You are correct, Marcia. And it is a sad commentary on the state of much of Christianity in this country that your statement is true.

 

The last statement you made? No kidding! That's the problem of ALL Americans today.

 

IMO, this is an equivocation on your part canadyjd (I am not questioning your patriotism BTW).

The Declaration of Independence gives the reason why our founding fathers broke with the Crown of England as opposed to Canada who sought and gained independence legally.

Our National Anthem is an anthem of pride concerning our War of defense against England.
Can you sing it?

Our 4th of July celebration contains fireworks which are symbolic of the War of the American Revolution against the Crown.
Do you celebrate it?

The Declaration of Independence contains the reasons why we broke with the Crown and I agree with the founding fathers that what they did was justified in the sight of God and could have signed it myself.

The Boston Massacre (March 5th, 1770) fulfilled the Genesis 9:6 passage and allowed us to engage and win a justified war with England.

So believe what you will and/or cloud the issue with the Native American, slave and suffrage issues.

Our nation was born out of the defiance of our founding fathers against the tyranny of the Crown of England, they knew it and pledged their lives and fortunes to that end. Our founding documents make "declaration" to that fact.

These are the the facts, avoid them if you will but as an American citizen you are a sociological/historical child of that revolution.
Even if your forefathers came through Ellis Island as my grandparents did.

And who said anything about rebelling against my government?

I defended my government by my stay in the military and would do the same today if I were able and duty called. I was willing to lay down my life to save your life and the lives of all Americans.

In fact, I and many others still do defend our government and the lives of other Americans (the unborn) everytime I go into the voting booth.

I am not saying you are not a good American citizen. My guess is that you are exemplorary.

But your heritage as an American citizen came out of a justified armed rebellion against the Crown of England.
It is our legacy.
All our documents, our National Anthem and our history prove that fact.
Personally, I can put my stamp of approval on that "rebellion".


HankD

 

We simply disagree.

Quite frankly, I've never thought about it the way you do.

Did you know that John Adams, the 2nd president and rightly considered the "voice of the revolution", defended the soldiers involved in the "Boston Massacre" and won the aquittal of all but the commander, who recieved a very small punishment? I don't believe the "Boston Massacre" was cited as the reason war with England was justified.

Did you even read the thread? The main question of the OP is whether 2 Peter commands us (as Christians) to "take up arms" against those who "trash our constitution".

"Taking up arms" means rebelling against the government.

peace to youraying: