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Obey every ordinance of man

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hi Marcia

    You said......
    Not exactly.
    What I am saying is that according to the laws of our nation, our elected officials are not our rulers at all.
    Therefore it would be impossible to rebel against them.

    They are simply our servants, who we elected to take care of the business of our government.

    But our government, is actually the laws of our land.

    If you or I, break the law, we will go to jail.
    But more often than not, if a law maker breaks the law, they use the power of their office to get away with it.
    --------------------------------------------------
    You also said.......
    Well I don’t know who you are talking about, but I am not a member of any armed group.

    All I am talking about, is our duty as American citizens, to obey the law;
    And to see to it, that our law makers also obey the law.
     
  2. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hello again canadyjd

    You asked.......
    Well I got this impression from your statement......
    Repeatedly you have spoken against “participating in violence”, and being a police officer etc, is a violent occupation.

    As for “political purposes”; Those are your words not mine.

    I have not been talking about “politics” at all.
    I have been talking about the laws of our nation, and our duty as citizens.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Please don’t be offended, but some people assume that if someone has grievances, than it must be political or racial.

    Like the way the press talked about the people who attended the town hall meetings.
    I hope that this does not apply to you.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Later you pointed out that you had served in the Armed Forces and as a police officer.
    (And I also commend you, for your service to our nation.)

    But you of all people should appreciate how valuable our liberty it.
    And how as citizens we are duty bound(in one degree or anther), to retain our liberty.

    For instance, you have taken a vow, to protect and defend the constitution of the United States;
    So you and I aught to be in total agreement!
    --------------------------------------------------
    The point that I was making in 1Peter, has to do with “law”.
    And how God, expects us to respect the laws of man.
     
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There is presently no need for a violent overthrow of our government nor will there ever be (in all probability) because the founding fathers built enough checks and balances into the "Law of the Land" for "we the people" to change the government should it become tyrannical.

    The right to bear arms is a fire escape, should our government fail and/or be taken over (by Mexico or Canada - that's an attempt at humor, but it was real possibility in 1776), we the people will have the necessary arms to attempt to reestablish our government.

    We may not agree with President Obama's policies, however he is our duly elected President voted in by the majority and we have a spiritual duty to pray for him as well as for all our leadership.

    If you are tired of broken promises and "change" you don't like, vote him out of office.

    I agree that Christians are to live peaceable lives (as much as is within us), obey the law, go good, pray for our enemies, hasten the Coming of Christ...

    I do however believe war is justifiable on a national level in order to protect the citizenry from our foreign enemies, and on a local government level against domestic (home grown terrorists, organized crime, rioters, looters, assasins, etc) enemies.

    Personally, I can live under any government knowing my eternal home is that city not built with hands. In the mean time I will exercise all the legal rights afforded me by the base documents of our founding fathers to influence our leadership and use the weapon they fear the most:

    My vote.


    HankD
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well said, HankD. The best post of the thread!:thumbsup:

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    My vow to my country is superceded by my love of Christ and devotion to God's Word. It is a matter of perspective for me.

    We all know how it ends. The whole world goes after the anti-christ. The United States of America will not be spared.

    I will not have taking up arms against government officials be the last thing I do before I meet our Lord Jesus, knowing this land is lost to satan already. It is only a matter of time.

    Rather, I pray for the strength to follow scripture... to pray for those who persecute...witness to those who abuse... forgive those who kill for a secular power....because they don't realize what they are doing...they don't realize they are under the influence of satan....just as I once was...

    ....that, perhaps, some of them may be saved...as I have been.

    It is a matter of perspective. I want to keep my perspective in line with God's Word.

    peace to you:praying:

    P.S. Let me add a couple of smilies so this post doesn't seem so gloomy!:smilewinkgrin::tongue3::1_grouphug:
     
  6. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    I remember about 9 or 10 months ago, after seeing how last November’s elections turned out, sharing with some Christian friends of mine, how that this may be why we don’t see America in any end time prophecy; that this may be how the Lord plans to destroy our nation.

    And like most of you, I just wrote off the United States, and figured this is why, the Lord never seemed to lead me down the patriotic path.

    But then recently, through some unusual circumstances, I was reminded of the greatness of our nation, and started to ask myself if I had made the right decision, in turning my back on America.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Now HankD & canadyjd, the both of you have made some interesting points, and for sure, nothing should ever come before our devotion to Christ.
    And sure enough these are the last days, and our Lord might return at any moment.

    But I am still unsure, that it is the LORD’s will, that we simply throw up our hands, and give up, and voluntarily walk into the lions den, or what ever this wicked world, may have in store for us.

    In the garden, even our Lord prayed, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].”

    Sure enough, each of us must be ready to sacrifice all, in obedience to our LORD;
    But shouldn’t we let Him choose the time and the place.
    --------------------------------------------------
    No one in this thread, has been even suggesting, that this is the time for any violent acts.
    I simply started this thread, because of what is happing in our world right now.

    Sure enough, those of us who are saved, are citizens of heaven;
    And that citizenship seals our eternity.

    But the question being asked by this thread, is what responsibilities do we have, while we are here?

    Just as no married man, should even consider abandoning his wife and children, to go to the mission field;
    (He might say, “Well I am putting the LORD first”, but he would be in disobedience, because he would be neglecting his rightful obligations to his family.......
    1 Timothy 5:8
    “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house,
    he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    The question, that I am still seeking an honest answer to, is this:
    Do we as Americans, owe anything, to our earthly nation?(According to Scripture)

    I had thought that the passage in 1Peter, seemed to answer this question in the affirmative, but no one else here seems to agree.

    Just as that missionary, who left his wife and children, in his devotion to the Lord:
    May someday discover, that he had been in disobedience, because he had neglected his earthly obligations.

    I want to be 1000% sure, that I am doing the right thing, when I turn my back on the freedoms that God had given me here in the United States, because of my devotion to Him.
    --------------------------------------------------
    It is easy, for anyone who talks about freedom and sound like a nut;
    And that is the kind of reception that I have received here.

    But I am still open, to any answers. I am still learning.
     
  7. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

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    I think the spirit of what Paul was saying is just to keep yourself out of trouble with the authorities as best as possible.
     
  8. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    So, Christian police officers, soldiers, etc. are under the power of Satan? What a sad and perverted interpretation of the Bible.
     
  9. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hello sag38

    In all fairness, canadyjd used to be a soldier and a police officer, and he has said that he is not critical of their calling to a violent occupation.

    He just doesn’t believe that violence could ever be justified, to defend our nation from it’s enemies within.
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hi stilllearning,

    One Sunday a pastor to the "mentally challenged" presented us with his plea for help for those who were so afflicted.

    He used this Scripture:

    Mark 14:8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.​

    IMO, each of us should do what we can to defeat evil in the world, pray, give, go as the Lord gives enablement and opportunity.
    Violence obviously is not an option for the Christian (unless in defense of our nation as directed by congress and/or the president).​

    Everyone can pray, most can give and some can go.​

    Our highest calling is to the gospel message, however we are directed to help the poor and needy.​

    I believe we are having this present flood of liberalism because generally speaking Americans, as giving as they are, have held back and neglected the poor and needy.​

    Now our leadership openly proposes and legislates the "redistribution of wealth" (unfortunately along with some evil social programs - abortion, "death with dignity", etc).

    Are we reaping what we have sown (or actually have not sown)?

    HankD​
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hi sage38,

    Actually the whole world is given over (for the moment) to the evil one.

    1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.​

    This allowance is part of God's sovereign rule.

    However God has not left the general population without defense against him.

    He has ordained government and "the sword" to keep evil in check:

    Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
    5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    So while the world is given over to satan and under his sway, government and law enforcement agencies are our Father's means of keeping him in check until the appointed hour. Then will come the wrath of God upon this world.


    HankD​
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I am going to take you at your word that you never intended to imply that violence against our government for political purposes was the intended discussion of this thread.

    I think you would have to admit, however, that your statement concerning the I Pet. passage, that it may "command us to take up arms against those who trash our constitution" would be a poor choice of words if Christian support for armed rebellion (if necessary) were not the intent of the discussion.

    That said, if I understand your rephrased question now... "what is a Christian's responsibility to the government God has granted them?", I believe we are in agreement.

    Christians should be involved in the election process. There is no reason why Christians shouldn't vote their conscience for candidates that reflect their values. HankD has already stated a position that closely reflects my own.

    The problem for most of us, I think, is that we have associated "Christian values" with some very secular ideas that really have nothing to do with Christianity, such as low taxes, strong national defense, gun rights, and school choice. There is nothing wrong with any of those things and support for them is good public policy, IMHO. They just don't have anything to do with Christianity.

    Some have associated loyality to Christ with loyality to a political party. This applies to both major parties.

    I had a Christian lady in the last election (an Obama supporter) chastize me for my support of McCain/Palin, saying she couldn't believe a Christian would support McCain over Obama. She is a life-long democrat, and has so closely tied her politics to her religion that she can't tell the difference, IMHO.

    FTR, I'm glad we are now clear on the intent of the discussion. Your later comments make more sense in light of your clarification. Thank you.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #72 canadyjd, Nov 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2009
  13. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hi canadyjd

    You said........
    It is always great, when brothers in Christ, can be in agreement;
    But it is so very rare, for two of us to be in 100% agreement.

    So lets get as close as we can.
    --------------------------------------------------
    A lot of water has gone under the bridge, from page one of this thread:

    So I went back to it, to refresh my memory...........
    Now, I left off the last three sentences of the OP, because they seem to be the most contentious.

    Here they are.........
    In retrospect, I must agree, that the Bible never “commands us” to take up arms.
    And I am sorry for saying that.

    What I meant to say, was that from what 1Peter says, the LORD wants us to obey man’s laws(our government);

    Therefore, since our Constitution is set up in such a way, that if somehow our elected officials ever totally disregard it, in order to take away freedoms, we as citizens, are to take our liberty back.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Now you have said, that you somewhat agree with what HankD has said;

    Well here is a paragraph, from one of his recent responses......
    And in your next response following his, you said.......
    Well, a few months ago, I would have placed my stamp of approval on both of these statements, having said many times myself, that the only reason I have guns, is for “self defense”.
    Because I too, had given up on the United States, realizing that Satan was already in control.

    Now without going into detail, as to what changed my outlook, let me say that someone reminded me of the selfishness of this view.
    (Having the attitude, that as long as our corrupt government is only taking the liberties of others, I will not take a stand for what is right.)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Now a word to HankD.

    Your statement........
    I agree, I could also live under any kind of government. But is that God’s will for us?
    Did God give us an America(and the liberties that we have here, and with a legal and constitutional right, to keep it a free country), in order for us to give it up so easily.

    Is it right for us, to simply give it away?
    --------------------------------------------------
    Now, as you can see.
    This thread in no way, is encouraging anyone to any violent act.
    And praise the Lord, we do have the power of the vote, and we aught to use it.

    But.......the Constitution, tells us to never take the other alternative, off the table.
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Okay, thanks for clarifying, I think.

    Whether or not the law makers break the law, as Christians, we should abide by the law.

    Also, I think that we can apply Rom. 13 and other passages to our government, even if they are not "rulers" in a despotic sense.

    When you say "see to it" that lawmakers abide by the law, I can only think of the consequences that occur when they don't and are found out - criminal consequences, voting the person out of office, impeachment, etc. We have a host of legal and peaceful means to deal with lawmakers who violate the laws.
     
    #74 Marcia, Nov 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2009
  15. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hello Marcia

    I think, that we are on the same page now.

    And praise the Lord, for all the “legal and peaceful means to deal with lawmakers who violate the laws.”
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Now a word to HankD.

    Your statement........

    Quote:
    “Personally, I can live under any government knowing my eternal home is that city not built with hands.”

    Your response:
    "I agree, I could also live under any kind of government. But is that God’s will for us?
    Did God give us an America(and the liberties that we have here, and with a legal and constitutional right, to keep it a free country), in order for us to give it up so easily

    Is it right for us, to simply give it away?"

    My response is : No, I also said that I would (and do) exercise those rights provided me by the base documents drawn up by the founding fathers of our nation to protect the Constitution.

    The system is working. Last nights conservative referendum against the Obama administration is a result of the check and balance safeguards built into our system.

    People are now seeing the far left sided agenda of the current administration, realized that they have been sweet-talked, sold a bill-of-goods and are now going to vote them out of office via free election.


    HankD
     
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