Obeying the call?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Why is it that whenever we say that "God called and we answered", does it get thrown back at us that we "elected ourselves", or "saved ourselves"?

    I will use this last 1.5 weeks as an example. Last thursday(6/14) I lost my precious sweet mommy suddenly to an apparent blood clot. :tear: :tear: :tear: :tear: I have made it by His Grace since then, as I have had a peace about me that can only come from Him. I made it, but only by His help. Now, how would that be me boasting by making the statement "I made it, but by His Grace/Help?" How is it me boasting when I state that God saved me after I obeyed His call?

    I want this to be civil, and as soon as this gets nasty, I will ask IMMEDIATELY for the Mods/Admins to close'er down. We are mature people, and more importantly, mature christians, and we need to act accordingly. Do not take this thread down the toilet.
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is nothing wrong in saying we have obeyed the gospel, it is exactly what the scriptures themselves say;

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Paul did not teach that we are enslaved and compelled to sin, he taught that to whom a person "yields" themselves to obey they become a servant.

    In other words, man has ability. He can yield himself to obey sin, or he can yield himself to obey the gospel and be made free from sin.

    Now, the Calvinists would say this robs God's sovereignty. How so? How can "obeying" God rob his sovereignty? If we are obeying God, then God is the boss. To obey is to submit to God.

    If you obey your boss at work, does that make you in charge? Of course not, that is nonsensical. It is when a person does not obey that they usurp the authority of another.

    Just another false argument, to obey the gospel is to submit to God's authority. To disobey is to usurp God's authority.
     
    #2 Winman, Jun 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2012
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    95
    Son I dont think that this is really the time to discuss this subject matter with you right after the passing of your mother & I would not advise it right now. However if you want to speak about how Christ is working in your life, Im in. Again I am sorry for your recent loss & I will pray for you brother.
     
  4. Herald

    Herald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, my condolences on the passing of your mother. May the Lord grant you comfort and strength during this time and in the future.

    God does save us after we respond. If I were to get technical I may take exception the word "after", since I believe scripture teaches that once God makes the sinner alive (Eph. 2:5) that salvation is nearly instantaneous. We certainly do respond to God's call, and respond we must. I don't know one solid teacher among the doctrines of grace who doesn't believe that man must respond and do so willingly.
     
  5. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,879
    Likes Received:
    109
    God, who is Love, doesn’t leave us or forsake us; love does not leave us or forsake us. I don’t know your relationship with your mother, but hearing of your loss and speaking of grace makes me think of losing my grandmother.

    My Grandma deeply cared about her family and she warmly welcomed all who became a part of her extending family, by whatever means, with open arms. She was my paternal grandmother and I really didn’t know her very well until I was around nineteen. I happened to call her up after not seeing her for quite some time to see how she was doing, actually, I was also hungry and I knew she had a reputation for inviting people over for a meal. :) I’m sure she had heard what a bad person I was, the trouble I’d been in and how worthless I was, but without hesitation she was glad to hear from me and invited me over to eat. Of course, she also became aware I was struggling to eat and sent me home with a box of food and invited me back next weekend. She was a human living example of the definition of loving grace!

    She was a very proper and formal lady; she asked about my life and would listen carefully but didn’t judge or condemn but offered wise counsel. She seemed to get to know things about me that I didn’t know about myself and had a way to calmly and lovingly lecture and advise me that would cut me to the heart and I had the greatest respect for her and I knew I could trust in her understanding. She believed there was a lot of good in me and saw potential that was untapped and I grew to believe and count on her love as she drew that that potential out of me. I still chuckle to think about how amazed my girlfriends would be when they witnessed my transformation in her presence and how big their eyes would get when she would lecture me and I took it like an obedient whipped puppy. LOL.

    In her loving grace she helped me. She was a gift from God to me. She changed my life and I would not have become the man I am today without her having been in my life. I have nothing to boast concerning the accomplishments in my life that came about because of her. I can only boast about how great of a loving, wise and graceful person she was and how that that helped me become a better person when it seemed the rest world had it in for me. Nothing gave me more joy and motivation than her smiling in pride and feeling her love for me as these positive changes and accomplishments came about in my life.

    It was very hard to lose her and it still hurts. It left a huge void in my life and I so miss her and think of her often. Nowadays I count on the warm feelings I get in my heart as her memories remind me to reconsider my thinking in certain situations. I realize she is part of me and lives on through me. I catch myself acting like her more and more as I grow older and yet I know I could never fit in her shoes. Her love and grace will always help me and that has not been taken away, it lives in me and guides me. The kind of love she gave is a powerful thing, how much more so is God’s love?

    It’ll take some time friend but I think you will come to realize your mother is not as far away as it might feel she is right now.
     
    #5 Benjamin, Jun 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2012
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    My prayers are with you and your family
     
  7. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,536
    Likes Received:
    13
    Hi Convicted;Sorry to hear about your Mom. May God continue to help you through this time of sadness. God bless my friend.MB
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Either GOD saves us 100% or we are not saved. That we repent and believe/obey the Gospel just gives evidence of the inward regenerating change God did.

    But we know what people mean when I asked how they were "saved", as they will frame it in human terms we all grasp.

    They would say, "I was saved because I was convicted of sin and I repented and I called on Jesus. Then He saved me."

    We know that this is the way we talk (like the sun sets in the west; we know it really is the earth rotating, etc). I don't fault people for putting it in words the best way they know how.

    I do, however, try to teach them "Salvation is of the Lord", Still a hard concept for folks immersed in man-centric theology.

    (and add my condolences)
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Bob, why must salvation be irresistible to be considered "of the Lord?" Couldn't something be "of the Lord" but not irresistibly applied? For example, what about your understanding of soteriology? Is that 'of the Lord' or 'of Bob?' If it is 'of the Lord' then why don't all brethren hold to perfectly correct theology in every matter?
     
  10. Herald

    Herald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a great question. Imagine a world where every Christian agreed theologically. We're going to have to wait until glory for that world.

    I see Bob's point. If he's convinced, through rigorous study of the Bible, that "X" is correct, then it naturally follows that "Y" is wrong. Why is it that not all Christians agree that "X" is right? I can think of two reasons: fallible knowledge and sin. Fallible knowledge in that we don't know everything and must come to conclusions based on our understanding of what scripture reveals. Sin because pride, ego, and laziness can influence our premise, assumption, and conclusions.
     
  11. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,536
    Likes Received:
    13
    I just have one question Bob. If regeneration is by Grace and I believe it is then where do men get this grace from since it comes through faith? Eph 2:8.
    MB
     
  12. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    64
    I'm sorry to hear about your mother's sudden passing.
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    You mentioned two reasons, but I think you are missing the third: Freedom. We are free to choose between "X" and "Y" thus proving that God can provide all that is needed to know the 'truth' of "X" but that we can still mistakenly choose "Y." Is that because God failed to provide some of us what we needed to accept the truth of "X?" According to Calvinism, it must be so, for what other reason can a determinist give while remaining consistent?

    My point was to show that something can be 'of the Lord' without it being irresistibly applied. A Calvinist must accept that truth or admit that God has failed to provide all that his children need to understand and accept correct doctrine.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    as long as we define 'freedom' as the bible does!

    As we are sinners who are free to do as we chose, but due to sin nature, not free to chose jesus by ourselves!
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who, pre tell, is 'by themselves'???? Do they not have God's revelation? Has God not made himself clear to them? Do they not have the gospel? Do they not have the Church? Do they not have the scriptures? Do they not have the Holy Spirit convicting the world of sin???? Do that not have everything they need? Why do you people want to give unbelievers an excuse for their unbelief so badly?????
     
  16. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely false, and as usual, not one word of scripture to support your statements.

    Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    The scriptures show that even a child can refuse evil and choose good. Your statements are completely false and contradict scripture.
     
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly how does the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin? I've known plenty of people that didn't feel the least conviction of sin. In fact they believe they are good people.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you really believe that Amy? Did you ever feel convicted for anything wrong you did before you trusted Jesus? I know I did.

    All men can be convicted, but a person can harden their conscience, and in time seem not to feel conviction.

    Jhn 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
    4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    These men were not believers, they were not regenerated, they were trying to tempt Jesus. That is about as bad as you can get. Yet when Jesus said that whosoever was without sin should cast the first stone, they were all deeply convicted by their own conscience and left, beginning at the eldest, because the longer a man lives, the more aware he is of all the sin he has committed in his life. Pure truth has a way of convicting the hardest sinner.

    All men feel conviction, all men have a conscience.
     
    #18 Winman, Jun 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2012
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    As Win already pointed out there are various means, but that is beside the point. The point is that we KNOW he does because He tells us so:

    7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me​

    So, to suggest people are 'on their own' or are somehow left to themselves is a false view of the world and God's work in it.
     
  20. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,879
    Likes Received:
    109
    Without "true" conviction, what would God's judgment be based on?

    He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
    (Deu 32:4)

    Would you give those who "think" they are good people an excuse?

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    (Rom 1:20)


    No, no matter how much you can't understand why, and how much it might hurt you that a certain individual will not turn to God if they really and truly have a choice, the choice truly remains. God's judgment in the matter will be just and based on truth as He is Truth, and He will wipe away our tears over these people who refused to make that choice someday.
     

Share This Page

Loading...