Objections to Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Jordan Kurecki, Oct 15, 2014.

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  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    Here are some more problems I have with the TULIP system, the following are taken from Wayoflife.org, but exemplify my concerns, Please take your time to read them and reply to them, these verses are some of the biggest hurdles I face along with the ones I mentioned earlier:

    THE JEWS RESISTED THE HOLY SPIRIT -- “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye” (Acts 7:51).

    GOD CAN BE LIMITED -- “Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel” (Psalm 78:41).

    JESUS WOULD BUT ISRAEL WOULD NOT -- “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Mat. 23:37).

    GOD STRETCHED FORTH HIS HANDS TO ISRAEL BUT ISRAEL REJECTED HIM -- “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people” (Rom. 10:21). “I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts” (Isaiah 65:2).

    GOD INVITES ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO BE SAVED -- “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else” (Isa. 45:22).

    JESUS GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL -- “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Tim. 2:6).

    JESUS BOUGHT THE UNSAVED FALSE TEACHERS WHO TEACH DAMNABLE DOCTRINES AND DENY CHRIST -- “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction” (2 Pet. 2:1).

    JESUS TASTED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN -- “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man” (Heb. 2:9).

    JESUS ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD -- “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9).

    THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVICT THE WORLD -- “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged” (John 16:8-11).

    JESUS WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM -- “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:32-33).
     
  2. JohnDeereFan

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    Quick! Somebody call the police! I just found Context laying out back in the alley and it looks like somebody's beaten him to death!
     
  3. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    Did you find an english dictionary back there while you were at it?
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Jordan Kurecki



    Here are some more problems I have with the TULIP system, the following are taken from Wayoflife.org, but exemplify my concerns, Please take your time to read them and reply to them, these verses are some of the biggest hurdles I face along with the ones I mentioned earlier:

    Cals believe men can resist the Holy Spirit.....these men resisted....as their fathers did...

    they resisted and have gone on to the second death when they are cast away at the white throne.

    if you are speaking of irresistible grace, or the effectual call......that is not
    ULTIMATELY resisted.... a child of wrath grows up in sin and rebellion.
    God using various means.....the prayers of His people, their witness, their evangelistic efforts.....all means ordained of God to accompany the drawing of God the Holy Spirit using the word preached , read , and declared by the people of God....to bring conviction to the child of wrath and cause him to repent and believe the gospel.

    While this person was elected by God in eternity past....he was elected to be holy, he was called to be a saint, the word was brought to him and effectually draws him from darkness to light by the supernatural working of the Spirit in new birth.
    To an elect person....God makes him "willing" in the day of His power psalm110.

    This figure of speech speaks toward the result of their sin...not that an idea of anything could in anyway prevail or restrict God...

    In the Nt is says....he could do no mighty works their because of their unbelief. Do you think Jesus could not do a miracle as if something could actually restrict Him from doing a supernatural work?

    If every person wanted to repent and believe the gospel...God would not stop them. This text says......and ye...WOULD NOT.

    Unsaved men do not want God or His word, on God's terms.like those you mention in Acts 7....you do always resist the Holy Spirit.....the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God.....NEITHER INDEED CAN BE....rom8:6-11

    There are many such passages....Apart from God's grace this is the condition of the sinner. Among the unsaved of Israel is speaks of them rejecting the servants{prophets} and finally the full final prophet...The SON HIMSELF;

    33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

    34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

    35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
    36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
    37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


    Yes...isn't that wonderful:thumbs: All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel.

    Yes...all men,,,, not jews only, all kinds of men, rich poor, kings, those in authority

    Jesus by creation and going to the cross bought the rights to all men...

    17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


    Literally ..everyone...the context explains who the everyone are;


    9 and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.

    10 For it was becoming to Him, because of whom [are] the all things, and through whom [are] the all things, many sons to glory bringing, the author of their salvation through sufferings to make perfect,

    11 for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified [are] all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 saying, `I will declare Thy name to my brethren, in the midst of an assembly I will sing praise to Thee;' and again, `I will be trusting on Him;'

    13 and again, `Behold I and the children that God did give to me.'

    14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

    15 and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,

    16 for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
    17 wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,


    [/QUOTE]

    The elect are scattered all over the world.Anyone who was given to Jesus will be drawn to the light from anywhere in the world as God will provide the means to effectually draw them.
     
  5. steaver

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    Great observations :thumbsup:

    Anyone who simply reads these passages in context can see God's grace is an invitation to all and all have a freewill choice to make. They have the God given ability to receive Christ or reject Christ. Good post! :godisgood:
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    It is always easier to fight the strawman:laugh:I like how those who repeat these misused texts never explain how they think they get fulfilled.....
    for example.....as Jesus was lifted up on the cross,as He hung dying....how did he draw men in peru, or Alaska, or india...in 33 ad? all men right?

    or he is the ransom for all.....so how did he ransom those in peru , or Australia in 33ad...are they in heaven now?

    never see those verses explained as they offer them, as if the implications do not have to be consistent with all the other verses given:laugh:
     
  7. Rippon

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    Yeah, a simple recitation of verses with no context whatsoever. What's that old saying: A text with no context becomes a pretext.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    it is as if by repeating them over and over makes them transform into the thoughts of the person ....ie, steaver sees the non existent free will in those verses when it is not there...but he keeps saying it as if it were so:thumbsup:

    those offering the verses block out all the other ones like this;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebZJzB7W_c
     
  9. PreachTony

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    Help me with something here, Icon...

    I know I could look it up, and find some clinical commentary on the issue, but I'd rather here it from a believer.

    How can a man be held responsible to repent and believe if God never grants him the ability to believe in the first place?

    That's my (albeit limited) understanding of 'total depravity' and 'irresistible grace.' Can you offer up an explanation? Thanks in advance.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    all men sinned and died in Adam.
    God is not responsible for mans sin .
    we are told in Scripture that men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil it's the love of sin that sinners have that keeps them from repenting and believing in the gospel .
    They are also blinded by Satan so God has to supernaturally overcome satan
    that all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel but they don't want to.
    God is not stopping them from repenting .
    God is not making them sin.
    they sin because they love the sin that they do.
     
    #10 Iconoclast, Oct 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2014
  11. steaver

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    Great question :thumbsup:

    Do you find this answer adequate?

    Allow me summarize, God commands all to believe even though they cannot. Make sense??
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    It is just like you steaver.......they do not want to believe it is true.You do not want to.
    it is not as if anyone is stopping you.Ye would not.
    in Jn8 Jesus told them....my word has no place Iin you....man with his self will does not want to
     
  13. steaver

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    The command is given by God to believe on the Son. This command is given while we are yet sinners, all are sinners. The command is given post fall. Just as Adam had a freewill choice to believe, so do we. It's very simple, why do Calvinist go to such lengths to complicate it all?
     
  14. steaver

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    Icon, what is your testimony? Did you come to Calvinism "kicking and screaming" like most of the testimonies I've heard?

    I think folks dig right past the simple truth laid out for the simple reader which God meant to be so easily understood - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. The very command demands a decision.
     
  15. PreachTony

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    I found the answer adequate in light of Calvinism...the only problem is I don't find Calvinism adequate. According to Calvinism, God is presented as either a petulant child or as a monster.

    A petulant child will take a puppy on a leash, tie it to a chair or table, go across the room, call the puppy, and then get indignant when the puppy couldn't get to it. A petulant child will tell a "man" to have a baby, and then hold the man accountable for not having a baby, even though the male is incapable of bearing a child.

    Jesus said of Jerusalem:
    Why would Jesus say He would've gathered the people to himself, but then lament that the people would not come to Him, if the only reason people would not come to Him is because He didn't give them the ability to?

    Why would Jesus gather 'the people' and His disciples and say "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me (Mark 8:34)" when, according to Calvinism, not a single person will, of their own accord, do any of those things because God has not given them grace?
     
  16. steaver

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    All God given common sense observations. Either Jesus told a lot of half truths (which would be deceit) or He meant exactly what He said, "ye would not", not "ye could not".
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    ahhhhh......and then there is the Old School Baptists :D ....who hold to Doctrines Of Grace as Soterology but have soundly balanced God's Justice Personality with His Mercy Personality. There is a far far deeper insight to God's ways once you break the Calvinist/Arminian mold. And I am extremely grateful to Him for regenerating me late in life so that I could do a thorough evaluation of "Christian" theology & formulate my own conclusions.

    I can answer these concerns of yours regarding the Calvinist POV.... but this should come from one of them & not I. I await their responses. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  18. Rippon

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    Yeah, the whole new paradigm you said you were working on more than a year ago.
     
  19. PreachTony

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    No offense meant here, EWF, and it's probably a case of me having a rough day at the office, not feeling well, and probably having read far too much as of late, but is the bolded part above meant as a good thing or a bad thing?

    I consider myself fairly "old school" but that might be more a by-product of not supporting liberalism within the church. A good friend of mine calls me a "hardshell" Baptist.

    I have to say, while we do our best to maintain a semblance of civility, I really enjoy these discussions.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Steaver

    Spiritual death has separated us from God. our thoughts are twisted by self will and sin.
    We are not just like the untested Adam.
    Free will is a false philosophical idea invented by fallen carnal men
    who want to act independently of God's will.
    Jesus always did the Father's will.
    We are being conformed to the image of the last Adam....not the first
     
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