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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Chris Temple, May 28, 2002.
See Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered - A.W. Pink
I really like A.W. Pink, but I disagree with him on this point. God may not love every person with redemptive love, but you must ignore this passage in scripture to say He doesn't love every single person who ever lived:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. "
We are to love our enemies because that makes us like our Father in heaven who graciously provides good things to all--those who love Him and those who reject Him. This common grace is, according to this passage, an act of love.
The Bible flaty contradicts Pink's assessment of God's love.
Rom. 5:6-11 - "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Christ died even for those who now are rejecting Him in the hopes that they would realize His love and repent of their hatred and be saved.
The paradox of the Cross is the demonstration of God's hatred and love for the sinner; the hatred for man because of what he has done as a sinner but a love for him as man created in the image of God.
Simply put, based upon the many Biblical declarations of God's love for man while a sinner, Pink is wrong.
Though I don't know if I can agree with Russell as a whole, the fact that God commands us to love our enemies, is a great point; and the command is to love our enemies even while they remain our enemies.
Though God will eventually cast judgement on all those who have rejected Him, at least for now, the Cross is God's expression of love for every man; and every man, as a sinner, as an enemy of God, is called and given the opportunity to repent and believe; no one is excluded from the offer of God's friendship towards His enemies at the Cross.
That's is the only thing that is of any importance is God's love for his own. We do not know who are they are but I'm glad God does. Yet people still think they know what God is thinking or how he thinks. God has always loved his own from the beginning of time and made the ultimate sacrifice which is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15!... No one is added and not one is lost and yet we feel it is our duty to find those lost. They my be lost to the truth... blind and can't see the God of their Salvation but Eternally lost never. God never lost a one!... Fall from the Irresistible Grace of Almighty God... Perish the thought we even entertained the idea when we have come to know God as he is and we are! All Gods children will see him and none will be left behind who the blessed Son Of God... Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was crucified, died, and resurrected for on the third day. Seated on the right hand of God daily intersedeing for his own who he died for... In the Past... Now the Present... In the Future!... Christ said: "IT IS FINISHED"... What more need be said?... Brother Glen
"The arrogant cannot stand in Your presence;
You hate all who do wrong." (Psalm 5:5)
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
So the unsaved in hell - the fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners (1 Cor 6:9,10) - are atoned for, justified, saved from His wrath, reconciled to God, and saved?? Who is Paul writing to - unbelievers? No he is writing to believers in Rome. Who did Christ die for? His own, the church, His sheep. Your own defense of universal atonement is the best argument against the ridiculousness of it, yet your theological presuppositions leave you unable to handle the plain truth of Scripture: Jesus died to "save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21
[ May 28, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
1. Who said anything about the unsaved already in hell? I read Chris' quote again and Pink makes no mention of the sinners being the unsaved in hell. Did Chris read more into it than it states or did he leave out an important part of the quote that identified Pink's reference to sinners as the "unsaved in hell"?
2. I think a personal question, asked with respect, would clear up any misunderstanding Chris (or anyone else) may have about Romans 5:8 - When did Christ demonstrate His love for you on the Cross, while you were his friend or his enemy?
Fine, fine your hearts of stone, and heads of something even harder
Your belief that God only loves that elect is offensive
Your perception of Universal atonement is false
What makes the elect more loveable then the rest of the cesspool known as mankind? What could limit the core nature of God that is Love?
NOTHING - God is love - and that love is ABSOLUTE and ALL-ENCOMPASSING.
Yes God has paid for all sins for all times, but we have to claim that payment. Some people argue the method of claiming is water baptism - others liek myself claim that faith/repentance is all that is needed.
Ken replies: There are different aspects to God's love - He makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous, He makes the sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous. That is the common love He has for all of His creation. But surely you understand that God has a different kind of love for His elect in Heaven and the sinners in Hell.
Ken replies: Which is exactly what happens when someone places salvation in man's hands - different kinds of rules are decided by man as to how to attain salvation, in essence by works, as one goes down the slippery slope from rank Arminianism to semi-Pelagianism to rank Pelagianism.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
If you go to this link www.founders.org/FJ42/article4.html you will find an excellent description of the five different expressions of God's attribute of love by one of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention and the primary founder of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, James Petigru Boyce. And yes, as most of the movers and shakers in the early years of Southern Baptist churches, he was a thorough going Calvinist.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
I just read a portion of a post that shows how man will do anything at any cost to do something to contribute to eternal salvation. Eternal redemption was accomplished by Jesus and Him alone. Faith is not a condition, but an evidence of eternal life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
He who believes "hath" everlasting life and "is" passed from death unto life. The man who believe already has everlasting life and already is passed from death unto life. Jesus did not say that he who hears His word and believes "will have" everlasting life and "will" pass from death unto life, but that he already has and already is!
Actually he did:
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice how the eternal life is the result of believing.
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Notice here are life in his name comes by believing.
While I agree with you that a unilateral, sovereign enablement of God is necessary for one to believe, we must not contradict clear passages by suggesting that life can come without belief.
Just asking out of curiousity. How is this quote related to the subject being discussed?
[ May 30, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Nelson ]
Those verses are not saying that belief is a condition. Belief is an evidence of eternal life in a person. Those who have been enabled to believe are the ones who are born again, and those who are born again will have eternal life.
This is a non-answer. If these verses do not say that belief leads to eternal life than what do they say?
And furthermore, why don't you give one verse that teaches what you are saying, namely that belief is teh evidence of life.
[ May 30, 2002, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," (Gal. 5:22) Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, therefore, one must have the Spirit before one can have faith. If one has the Spirit, he or she has eternal life. Faith does not give one the the Spirit, but the Spirit gives one faith.
The question was not does the Spirit give faith. We all agree on that.
The question is where is faith said to be the result of eternal life? I have shown you clear passages where faith is said to result in life. Yet you deny these. Where is the evidence for your side.
Do you believe that when one has the Spirit of God they have eternal life?
Yes. I believe that the Spirit enable belief through the effectual call and gives life in response to that faith that is created in the effectual call.