Objections to Premillennialism - pt. 4

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Christopher, Mar 11, 2002.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher
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    1. When reading Biblical references to the second coming of Christ there is the clear sense that He is coming for final judgment. But in the premillennial scenario these passages must be interpreted to mean that Christ is coming to establish an earthly kingdom.

    2. In the millennium there is an odd blend of resurrected saints mingling with mortal humans.

    3. How could the mortals in the millennium have any interaction with the glorified Christ? They would not even be able to come into His presence. This would also be true of the rulers from the line of David. Would Christ rule from behind a curtain like the wizard of Oz? The only ones who would be able to come into Christ's presence would be the glorified saints from the church age.

    By His grace, Christopher
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    'How can mortals interact with the glorified Christ?'

    How did the apostles on the evening of the resurrection interact with the glorified Christ?'

    The answer: Easily and naturally but to their surprise.

    Ray
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Glorified saints, O.T. & N.T. saints will make their grand entrance at the Second Coming of Christ as recorded in Revelation 19:14. There will be saints in mortal bodies who will have survived the Great Tribulation and the antichrist's regulation to take the mark in the hand or forehead. These living, moral saints will move on into the Kingdom Age. They will interact with Christ who will be enthroned in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:17] They will eventually die and be give 'glorified bodies' likened unto our Lord's spiritual body.

    Ray
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher
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    So when exactly are those mortal saints who die resurrected to get their glorified bodies? That is, where in scripture does it mention this?
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher
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    Kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven...different?

    (Matt. 15:17) "...kingdom of heaven is at hand..."

    "at hand" = 2,000+ years later?????????
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    It was at hand but if you remember, the Jews rejected it and it was taken away. Remember that Christ said the Kingdom is in your midst. Jewish rejection led to teh kingdom being taken away until such time as the nation would repent.

    Your resurrection question is one that requires the synthesis of all teh biblical passages. Understanding that Scripture is a unified system of truth, we realize that no passage can contradict another. They all fit together. Rev 20 clearly talks of two resurrections so we know there is more than one. Plus there was a resurrection at the crucifixion where many were up out of the graves and walking around so we know there is at least three.

    Christ will come in judgement but that no where precludes him establishing his kingdom. I think it is clear from Scripture that the Tribulation period of seven years must still happen; there has been nothing in history that even remotely resembles those prophecies. At the end will be the battle of Armageddon where Christ will sit in judgment on those who rebel. Having conquered all his enemies (who now still exist thereby proving that we are not living in the kingdom), he will sit down on his throne to rule. During this time Satan will be bound, ceasing to manifest himself as an angel of light, to walk about as a roaring lion, etc (all things that he is doing now thereby proving that he is not bound). At the end, Satan will be loosed for a little time to gather rebellious people again to himself and will once again attempt to conquer Christ. He will be destroyed along with all who follow him. At this time there will be a resurrection, possibly the resurrection of Dan 12, where judgment will be given (Great White Throne). Scripture never sets out to give a full accounting in one place of the various resurrections. However, Scripture is explicit that there is more than one. We have to put the pieces together.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher
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    You have every right to believe the way you wish, and I have every right to believe the way I wish. That is the good thing about the United States and the cause for which our soldiers are dying for on the other side of the world. You and I can disagree about many things in the Bible. We both agree Jesus is the Son of God who lived a sinless life, shed His blood for the remission of our sins, and was resurrected after being dead three days and three nights for our justification.

    (Acts 13:46)
    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    Paul reveals to us why the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

    (Rom. 11:5-8)
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    The church was God's purpose from eternity. God foreordained Jesus to be crucified from the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20). It follows if God foreordained Jesus to be crucified, the purpose for which He was crucifed was also foreordained. That purpose was to purchase the church with His blood (Acts 20:28).

    (Matt. 21:43)
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    The only kingdom ever offerred to the Jews, as some Premillennialists believe, was the kingdom of heaven, a physical kingdom, not a spiritual one. Also according Premillennialists, the kingdom of God was not established until the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. According to Matthew, the same kingdom the Jews rejected was given to the Gentiles. Why would the Gentiles be given another kingdom? Furthermore, Matthew 21:46 uses "kingdom of God" to refer to the kingdom. If the kingdom of God was never promised to the Jews, how could it be taken away?

    The Jews are not the children of God.

    (Rom. 9:28)
    28 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    How are you made a child of God?

    (Gal. 3:26)
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    By His grace, Christopher

    Calvinist note:

    (Rom. 9:23)
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    [ March 12, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Actually that is the good thing about Bible Christianity.

    I don't think anyone would seriously argue with this. I certainly wouldn't. I agree with it fully. However, it is unrelated to the issue at hand. One can believe this and be pretrib and premill.



    The kingdom of heaven is the same as the kingdom of God. The Gospels use them interchangeably. Not only was the Kingdom of God not established until the Jew rejected Jesus, it was not even established then. The kingdom of God could not be established because the Jews rejected their king.

    As for Matt 21, I am not convinced that the kingdom was given to the Gentiles in the manner in which you assert. I am reserving that for further study. However, I do not believe in any case that your point disproves premillennialism. The kingdom will be given to a people producing the fruits of it. I believe a case can be made that this statement was made to Jewish leaders and that the people producing the fruit of it are end-time Israel which will be saved when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom 11:26).

    The rest of your verses here I am not sure what their relavance is. I don't disagree with any of them. I think they all support the position I have taken very well. However, they don't appear to have any to the distinctions we are talking about, at least as you have cited them.
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    Pastor Larry,

    Excellent answers in three brief paragraphs. Wish our other friends could see this truth. . .

    Ray
     

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