of Grace or works?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SolaScriptura in 2003, Jan 2, 2003.

  1. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    "Works by which a man merits justification, and commands which one must obey to be saved, are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many religionists can not or will not see this distinction, which should be plainly seen by any Bible reader. Because they fail to make this distinction, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved. A man has no real understanding of either works or grace when he thinks that conditions of forgiveness make salvation a matter of works and not of grace. Nothing that a sinner can do merits salvation. Many things are of grace, and yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing of leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the river Jordan? Is any so blind that he cannot see that giving sight to the blind man [in Jn. 9] was a matter of grace, even though he had to go wash in the pool Siloam? If so, he needs his eyes opened as badly as did the blind man."

    This is a quotation from R.L. Whiteside on Romans 11:6, although I don't know who Whiteside is nor do I have his commentary -- I got this quote from a book quoting him, called "Neo-Calvinism In The Church of Christ" which I recently purchased.

    Does any one disagree? Will anyone allege that either Naaman or the blind man were healed by works since washing in water was necessary to their healing??? If not, why do you say that those who teach baptism is necessary to salvation teach "works salvation"??? You are inconsistent if you do not say either "both are of works" or "both are of grace."
     
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    I'm confused as to the answer you are seeking. Do works merit salvation? No. Grace is a free gift of God, and it's nicely packaged. But we have to open God's gifts of graces and let them be applied as Christ intends them.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  3. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    I want those who used to teach that the phrase "by grace are ye saved" means salvation is unconditional to come to their senses and realize (and teach) that salvation is conditional and still of grace, just as Naaman's cleansing was conditional but also of grace.

    [ January 02, 2003, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  4. DHK

    DHK
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    Naaman's cleansing may have been conditioned upon him dipping himself in the Jordan River seven times. He may have been healed, but he wasn't saved. Sometimes my healing may be conditioned upon whether I take a medicine or not, but that has nothing to do with my salvation. Salvation is always unconditional. God never put any conditions on salvation. We are saved by God's grace ALONE, without any conditions attached, including baptism.

    "By grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast."

    You either believe that verse or you don't. Baptism is a work. Salvation is a gift. By grace I am saved by accepting God's gift of salvation through faith. There are no works such as baptism that could ever add or condition that salvation. To do so would take away from the grace of God, and do spite to the Spirit of God.
    DHK
     
  5. Chrift

    Chrift
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    It sure is...

    "...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying..." Titus 3:5-8

    Fortunately for us it God's work, not ours. I did nothing at my baptism and recieved precious blessings for all my "hard work".

    (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Eph. 5:26, Rom. 6:3, I Cor. 6:11, Jn. 3:3-5.)
     
  6. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
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    I think you're confusing merit and responsibility.

    Naaman was healed as an act of grace. He did not merit it. Howefer to receive that grace he had a responsibility to fulfill. The grace was unconditional. God had decided to grant it without being coerced or bribed or prompted in any way. God's choice to be gracious was unconditional. But in order to receive that grace, naman had a responsibility to fulfill.

    This exactly parallel to what is taught by salvation by grace being unconditional. God's choice to save is unconditional, a free choice that does not take into account anything in us, but is purely about His character.

    Unconditional never meant that we have no responsibility.

    In short, I don't think it is fair to say that people have taught what you say. I think it likely that you have misunderstood.
     
  7. Nimrod

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    Do you consider believing in the gospel(the say the Holy Scriptures define it), "work"?
     
  8. Bible-belted

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    Jesus in John 6 refers to believing as a work, but it is clear there that he is speaking metphorically, and not in the terms that Paul is .
     
  9. hrhema

    hrhema
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    FOR ALL THOSE WHO SAY WORKS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.

    "Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons, For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty
    and you didn't give me anything to drink. I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked and you gave me no clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me." Then they will reply, "Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you? And he will answer, I assure you, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me. And they will go away into eternal punishment. Matthew 25.

    Everything the Lord listed are considered works. It does not seem that Jesus said there are exceptions to the rule.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK
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    Everything?? Jesus in Mat.6 speaks of fasting. If you don't fast does that mean you won't go to heaven. In the same chapter He speaks of giving alms. If you don't give alms does that mean you won't go to heaven. He also speaks of getting angry with your brother as the sin of murder. If you get angry with your brother (or neighbor) will you then go to Hell? Must you keep every command that Jesus said in order to go to Heaven?
    DHK
     
  11. Bible-belted

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    hrhema,

    I don't believe anyone claims that works have no place in salvation. They certainly do. But those works do not merit you salvation. Works are done subsequent to regeneration as the fruit of true repentance.
     
  12. Chrift

    Chrift
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    John 3:36: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

    Now look at Matt 25:31-46 with the above in mind. To the right (believers) Jesus talks only of their good deeds as if they have never sinned.

    everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43

    The other group (unbelievers) only their failures are brought up.

    Hebrews 11:6 says: "Without faith it is impossible to please God."

    Our works do not save us. Only our faith in Jesus can.
     
  13. Briguy

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    Chrift writes:
    ""Our works do not save us. Only our faith in Jesus can.""

    Thank you Chrift!! Somethings are better said simple.

    Our works could never justify us to a perfect, Holy God. That should be easy to see. The works we perform, as said above, are the result of our salvation, in fact, they are the "proof" of our salvation. Do we need to prove our salvation to God? Of course not, so the "proof" is not for God it is for others. We are justified before others by our "works". This makes sense in light of the fact that God has known our Heart since the begining of time and we can't "prove" anything to God. If we are saved, "works" will happen or our faith is dead. A careful reading of James, with the above thought in mind will prove what I said. Our light is to shine before others so they will see our good works and give glory to God. Our works are a witness to others and an assurance to ourselves but never a means by which God, who knows everything, would or will judge us.

    Saved by Grace,
    Brian

    To All: Happy New Year!! May the Lord reign supreme in our hearts this coming year.
     
  14. hrhema

    hrhema
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    Number one I was talking about just that particular scripture. So going off like that was off the wall.

    Was Jesus talking to unbelievers? I don't think so because this goes right along with the scripture where he says these individuals will do all these mighty things in his name but he will tell them he never knew them.

    Why did Jesus say anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God. Isn't plowing works? Did he not say that person is not fit for Heaven.

    also in Luke Jesus said that the door to Heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, because many will try to get in. This sounds like works to me.
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv
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    Faith leads to grace, and grace leads to works. It's often been noted that protestantism, in an effort to separate themselves from roman catholicicm, has dowmplayed works to the point where many feel that works are of insignificant importance.
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
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    Are you as holy as God is holy?
    If works are necessary to salvation, your works must bring you to the place where your holiness matches the holiness of God, for an unholy person can never stand before a holy God. That is why Peter said:

    1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    DHK
     
  17. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    First, DHK, you do err in forgetting that Jesus said "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." (Mat 9:12) Salvation is healing -- healing from sin.

    Secondly, many verses plainly declare salvation as conditional. John says in 1 John 1:7 "IF [if=conditional word] we walk in the light...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Also in John 10:9, Jesus says "I am the door: by me IF [if=conditional word] any man enter in, he shall be saved," Rom 10:9 says "That IF [if=conditional word] thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." 1 Cor 15:2 says "By which also ye are saved, IF [if=conditional word] ye keep in memory what I preached unto you," That one shows both that salvation is conditional and that "once saved always saved" is Satan's lie! There are conditions to being healed from sin. IF only Calvinists could learn what IF meant. IF they could do that, then they might stop teaching error, and IF they stopped teaching error more people would be saved -- they might be saved also, but only IF.

    Thirdly, baptism is no work, but a gift wereby I am blessed with the ability to be buried with Christ and contact His precious blood for I am baptized into the same place that His blood was shed into -- the remission of sins. Romans 6:4 "For IF [if=conditional word] we have been planted together in the likeness of his death [by baptism, see vs 4], we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [only IF because this is conditional]" -- If you want to be "born again," spiritually resurrected, have newness of life, you must be baptized for only IF you are planted in the likeness of his death can you be in the likeness of his resurrection.

    [ January 03, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
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    And this is rightly dividing the Word of Truth??
    DHK
     
  19. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Also, DHK, the verses you quote from 1st Peter (and their context) prove the opposite of your point!

    (1) They prove that it is in our power to be holy (1 Pet 1:15)
    (2) That God judges man by works (1 Pet 1:17)
    (3) That we ought to be "strangers to the earth" (1 Pet 1:17)
    (4) That we ought to FEAR God (1 Pet 1:17)
    (5) That our souls are purified in obeying the truth (verse 22)

    We find obedience is what sets in motion the purifying of the soul, as we also find in Hebrews 5:9 "he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    [ January 03, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
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    Romans 6:3,4 is purely symbolic, and nothing more. It teaches the believer the meaning of baptism--that he is dead to his old life of sin, and that he is raised again to a new life in Christ.

    Thus baptism is a work. Man does it. Man receives it. I have never seen God come down and baptize anyone. It is a work of man.

    Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    You either believe these verses or you don't. Apparenty you don't.
    DHK
     

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