1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Oh Pagan Tree

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by antiaging, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    ............................
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Martin:
    "Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship your statement does not apply. You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture. You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree that is fine, if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, that is fine. I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices. However I do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements against those who make a different choice than you on this matter. Simply put, you are going beyond Scripture."

    GE:
    Not empty verbosity; but arrogant pedantics, is what I would call your talk.

    But obviously you are yourself not able to see how you are appointing yourself the judge of others and even to act the authoritive Word of God.

    Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship [Martin deciding Christmas trees are not items of worship]
    your statement does not apply ['cause Martin says so].
    You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture [because Martin thinks you are misapplying and misquoting Scripture].
    You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth [I, Martin, decided and declared yours is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth].
    If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree [Martin says] that is fine
    if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, [by permission of one Martin] that is fine.
    I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices [because one Martin'conscience is OK with it and declares it your right because he claims it his right].
    However I [Martin, on authority of Martin] do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements [because Martin has judged it's judgmental and unBiblical]
    against those who make a different choice than you on this matter [while they dare make a choice different than Martin's].
    Simply put [I Martin the mighty declare], you are going beyond Scripture [because I Martin by authority of Martin say you are going beyond Scripture].
     
  3. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==No "empty verbosity" only facts supported by Scripture.

    ==I stand on the Word of God, that is why each of my arguments were based on the Word of God. If that bothers you I'm sorry. However I am not prepared to compromise simply because the Word of Truth, upon which I stand, offends.

    ==How many people do you know who use their Christmas trees as objects of worship?

    I can't reply to the rest of your "reply" since you are not providing arguments of substance.
     
    #103 Martin, Dec 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
  4. Reformer

    Reformer New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just wish the biggest problem in American Christianity was whether or not to put up a tree in our houses. How sad it is that we have churches full of unregenerate pagans but that doesn't matter, we must address the TREE. If we put this much energy into preaching the Gospel how much better off would we be? The Pagan trees won't go to hell, but the pagan people will, and here we are on page 11 talking about a tree.
     
  5. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0

    self edited....
     
    #105 tinytim, Dec 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,548
    Likes Received:
    193
    :applause: :thumbs:
     
  7. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heh! Heh! Heh!

    Ed
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So if I can't put silver or gold on the tree how about bronze or copper? Just curious?
     
  9. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==I love that, maybe I should try it from time to time :laugh: .
     
  10. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,724
    Likes Received:
    0
    There was a time in my life when I used to not put up a tree. Because of the scripture that has been posted in this thread by me and others made me rethink just where our traditions come from. I saw that these customs were not biblical and as such saw that there was no reason for me to be trapped by customs of men. This was not the way I was raised as a child. We always had a tree and did all the Christmas customs a Christian family would do. I carried this tradition into my young adulthood until I began to question these customs. I preached several messages on this subject and until just a year ago I came to the realization that to worship something is to bow before it, pray to it and trust it's guidance for my life. The tree or anything else in my life never fit this definition of worship for me and I realized that on Christ did. The tree is back and decorations are a joy to share with the family.

    Mockery during those years of misguidance was beginning to harden my heart but God is always able to clear things up, as long as one continues to stay in the Word.

    And I still stand by what I had said in a previous post in this thread;

     
    #110 Palatka51, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  11. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,548
    Likes Received:
    193
    And if my 'ornaments' are fake silver and fake gold, does that make me a fake pagan (as well as only having a plastic tree)?
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Good point. I've never seen tinsel made of actual silver or gold. Rather expensive tree that. And from what I remember of ancient pagan cults did they also nail someone's Intestine to a tree and let them die there? Also weren't the trees that were venerated by silver and gold to those other gods actually oak trees and birch and the such rather than evergreens? Also curious.
     
  13. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,548
    Likes Received:
    193
    I can only speak for Europe, but here it was oaks and birch trees which were worshipped by the pagans, particularly by the Germans and Lithuanians; the latter's practices are reasonably well-documented since they only converted to Christianity in the late 14th century. I think the chap Jim was referring to (who cut down the pagan oaks) was St Boniface when he went to convert the Frisians and other north German tribes in the 8th century, but I can't be sure

    [ETA - have just searched Wikipedia and indeed it was St Boniface who cut down Thor's oak]
     
    #113 Matt Black, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Nothing is "neutral" when it is involved in "worship" or in a religious service or in a religious holiday. That is what makes Christmas trees, etc. so different from the symbolic things that are used at New Year's Day. Each nation has different symbolic traditions incorporated into their celebration of New Year's. That doesn't bother us at all, for New Year's is completely secular and has nothing to do with Christianity, the birth of Christ, etc. The same goes for the days of the week: Sunday, (the day to worship of the sun). That is simply the etymology of the word. It is secular, and a secular name for the day. Likewise Thursday (day of Thor). You get the idea.
    But there is no connection with a tree and Christ, or His birth. A tree doesn't have Christian significance; it does have pagan significance when put into a religious context. It is wrong to pass it off as amoral when it is put into a religious context. Nothing is amoral in a religious context.
    The principle is there. "Learn not the way of the heathen" This is what the heathen did. Why do people copy the ways of the heathen, even if they say they are not worshiping it, even if they don't take it that far? Why even start?
    You have not studied the OT well have you. Using your logic we might as well throw out the entire OT, and disregard Paul's command:

    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
    --Referring to a number of OT events, he writes that these things were written for examples and for our admonition. What else does he write:

    1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
    --Do we today have a problem with idolatry? You better believe we do. And it is at this season where it becomes most evident (I am not talking about trees either).
    Paul wasn't the only one concerned about this:

    1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
    --John also had a great concern for idolatry. The Bible is a timeless book.

    Read the book of Hosea. Time after time the nation of Israel strayed away from Jehovah and went after other gods like Baal, and not yet completely leaving the worship of Jehovah. They tried to do both at the same time. The committed idolatry at the same time as they worshiped Jehovah.
    At the same time as we worship the Lord, we allow materialism, sports, food, money, family, business, leisure, and all other kinds of things to get in our way of worshiping God. An idol is anything that comes between you and God. You may not worship a tree, but I am certain that there may be some other idol in your life that you probably need to take care of. There are in most people's lives.
    You just contradicted yourself. They are personal matters, but they do have sinful implications. You quoted from Romans 14. Read the conclusion.
    Whatsoever is not of faith is sin! If you cannot put up a Christmas tree in good conscience without any doubt that you are doing something wrong then it is sin. You must have full assurance in your heart that you are doing the right thing. That is why knowledge is important. Learn not the way of the heathen. What is the way of the heathen! What is the way of the heathen. How did Christmas originate and how is it's traditions connected to "the way of the heathen?" If this is known, then I dare say one could put up a Christmas tree in good conscience and their conscience would condemn them. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
    "Christ-mas" is the mass of Christ, a Catholic celebration. Why not celebrate the birth of Christ, and why not do it several times a year, every time the pastor preaches on it, which ought to be more than once a year. Why do we have to have a special day to celebrate the birth of Christ, especially when it is held on a day that simply replaces a heathen celebration. Christ was born in March or April, sometime in the spring--not in the dead of winter. This fact we know for sure.
    Not in agreement with their understanding of Scripture. They were right.
    If there is nothing wrong with it, then you should be able to back it up with Scripture, not the other way around. Trees have nothing to do with the birth of Christ. Why not interview some Druids? Have you ever witnessed to one? I have.
    I agree. It is a great time to celebrate the birth of Christ if that is what you do, but alas that is not what you are doing if you are following the world and putting up Christmas trees, decorations, etc. The way of the world (heathen) is not the way of Christ. Come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord. The celebration of the birth of Christ has nothing to do with the wishy-washy sentimentality pagan emotional attachment to Christmas trees, yule logs, mistletoe, candles, Christmas lights, and all of the other pagan and worldly attractions that go with it.

    Perhaps Antiaging got his origins wrong. But there is an origin to Christmas. And it isn't fallacious. But it is pagan. It never started as Christian. Christmas started as a festival to replace a pagan festival that was totally pagan in its roots. Why do you think it is in December, very close to the shortest day of the year. There is a very good reason for that. Perhaps I will get into that later. But this post is long enough.
     
    #114 DHK, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  15. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    But if something is done to replace something else, does that mean that it's based in that something else?

    Christmas was created as Christmas. While it was decided to do it around the time of the other "holiday", it is not based on that holiday.
     
  16. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    A tree is a tree is a tree until WE place some significance to it. Martin Luther turned the ash tree into something significant to him and German Christians around the season they deemed to be Christmas. Why do we need to make so much out of something like a tree.

    There are plenty of things used by other religions, but this sholdn't prevent us from using these things for good.

    In the words of a famous writer; "Much ado about nothing." Lets get on with it!

    May Father Christmas fill your stockings with something more than charcoal,

    Jim
     
  17. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So are you suggesting that (I guessing this is your reasoning) since Catholicism are basically a pagan religion that is comprable to what was shown on Zeitgeist and that Christ Mass is a celebration of a pagan ritual deity like Mythra that we must not celebrate the holiday at all? Is this correct?
     
  18. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    3,822
    Likes Received:
    1
    DHK,

    Regarding how we view a Christmas tree, here is something interesting, from the scriptures...

    Sticking a tree in your living room is not a sin.

    How you view it makes it sin or not.

    Why not simply view the tree as a representation of Christ, bearing many beautiful fruits through us?


    :godisgood:
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    If you are into typology there is a big difference between the "tree" in Jeremiah 10 and the "vine" of John 15. That is where you must look in the Bible for comparisons. A Christmas tree has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. The only thing that you (as in you people) are defending is sentimentality, and that is all. You are emotionally attached to a tree, and don't want to give it up. There is nothing Biblical about it. It has pagan roots. It has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. If you want to celebrate the birth of Christ why not "come out from among them and be ye separate," as the Lord says, and do away with what the world does? Is it necessary to follow the "customs of the heathen?"
     
  20. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ==Its a decoration not a idol or object of worship.


    ==You are falling into the origins fallacy there. The "root" or "origin" of a practice is not the total picture. We have to look at how it is practiced today. Christmas trees are nothing more than decorations. They are used by secular and religious people. Very few, if anyone worships their Christmas tree or uses it as a religious prop. A Christmas tree can be decorated with secular ornaments, family ornaments, or religious ornaments. It is just a tree with stuff hanging on it. It is decorated for decoration purposes. It is not a religious symbol.


    ==No, it is not what the heathen did. In an earlier reply on this board I pointed out that there is no historical or Biblical connection between Christmas trees and Jeremiah 10:1-6. That was a situation in which a tree was being used as an idol and not simply as a form of decoration. Two different situations, two very different contexts. You can't yank Jeremiah 10 out of context and apply it to a different type of tree. You say the "principle is there", I say it is not. Why? Because these are two very different things with very different purposes. I think your statement only serves to confuse the issue.


    ==Nice try but that is nothing but a strawman argument. Again you are trying to compare apples and oranges. One was an idol used for pagan worship, another is a decoration used during the Christmas season. One was a direct violation of the Law of God (idol), the other is nothing more than decoration used to celebrate a holiday that, btw, Scripture never says we should celebrate. In 1Cor 10 Paul was talking about things that were in common. You are talking about things that are not in common.

    If you want to talk about idols in modern society the Christmas tree should be the least of your concerns. The real idols today are politics, celebrity, money, cars, and things like that.


    ==Again, apples and oranges. People don't put up Christmas trees for the purpose of worshipping them or as idols to false gods. Christmas trees are decoration.


    ==I agree, but I don't believe it is a matter of sin. And I don't personally know anyone who does. So I have not contradicted myself. The issue of sin would be the person who is weak in faith contradicting their conscience not in the tree itself. Putting up a Christmas tree is not sinful nor good.



    ==That is nothing but origins fallacy. How Christmas began, how Christmas trees got into the mix, and the origins of Santa Clause, have nothing to do with how those things are practiced today.


    ==More origins fallacy. Christmas was a Catholic celebration. That is why the early American Puritans and seperatists would not celebrate it. However it is no longer the 17th century and the holiday is no longer simply a Catholic celebration. It has grown away from that. If you want to be critical of Christmas in the modern age I suspect there are plenty of better targets than Christmas trees. Most people no longer celebrate Christ's birth on Christmas day. The day has been turned into a marketing ploy for greedy people to run up debt and buy things they don't need. The origins of Christmas (etc) is not the issue anymore. The issue is how it is celebrated today. I'm sure on that point we would agree on much. But as long as you are stuck on the origins, we are not going to agree at all.



    ==Here I point you to Romans 14:5-6. True Christians should celebrate Christ's ministry, past and present, every day of their lives.


    ==We don't know when Christ was born. Last time I checked the literature on that issue historians and theologians come to different conclusions. Some say fall, others say spring, a few others can't rule out winter. We don't know when Christ was born. In fact we are not 100% sure of the year. Based on the year of King Herod's death we can probably come within a year or two (give or take). However we don't know for sure.

    ==That is a strawman argument because you know, like I do, that Scripture does not deal with the celebration of Christmas. Why? Because, as far as we know, the early Church did not celebrate the birth of Christ on any particular day. The practice of Christmas developed later and has evolved (changed) from there. However there are principles there we can apply to the celebration of Christmas. Romans 14:4-6 is one such principle. As long as Christ is the focus it is not a matter of idols or what the Catholic Church did or what the Roman Empire did. Christmas trees are just decoration. If a person takes personal offense at Christmas trees or believes Christmas trees are sinful then that person should not put one up. However there is nothing sinful in putting up a Christmas tree.


    ==That is not fact, that is opinion. You are free to hold to that opinion according to Scripture. However it is not a Biblical fact that putting up Christmas decorations is wrong. As I have pointed out, people put up decorations for different reasons. The importance is the reason beyond the otherwise meaningless action.



    ==That does not matter. The Christmas celebration has evolved, it has changed, and it is no longer simply a Catholic celebration. If you can't see, I suppose thats going to have to be fine with me.
     
Loading...