Oh you foolish Baptists!

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Lorelei, Dec 9, 2002.

  1. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    As I look around the Baptist Board I am amazed at what I see. Why do we believe that salvation comes from Faith alone in Christ alone but we think that one must do works or follow a set of rules in order to stay in God's good graces? In these scriptures Paul calls this foolishness.

    Recently women have been told they must cover their heads or wear dresses. Paul asks them this:

    Did you receive the Spirit because of what you wore or because you believed?

    Women have been told they are still bound to a marriage no matter what the circumstances. Paul asks them:

    Have you suffered so much for nothing?

    Church members who say that the church is not bound under the law of the tithe are told to stop that line of reasoning and are therefore not considered to be "fundamental" in belief. Paul says:

    Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

    We are no longer under the law period. If you beleive we are no longer under the law you can't say well, except for this law or that one. You either believe we are free from it all or you live by each and every one.

    As Paul said in the above scriptures, it is foolish to accept salvation by grace but still try to obtain our goal by human effort.

    We need to stop trying to live for God and let God live IN us.

    Paul said that everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial. I think that is what growing in God's grace is all about. As we grow, we find out which things are beneifical and which things are not. But note that word, beneifical. Being beneficial and being required are two different things. We need to open our eyes to the difference, and we can do that by focusing on Christ instead of focusing on our actions and the actions of those around us.

    ~Lorelei
     
  2. Don

    Don
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    Are you saying that some of us keep looking for an outward indication of an inward change?

    Like saying, you must speak in tongues so the rest of us know you've been filled with the Holy Spirit?

    Similar to, you'd better wear a tie (if you're a man) or a skirt (if you're a woman) so we know you've been saved?

    [​IMG] I'm with ya, Lorelei. Good post.

    [ December 09, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  3. Gina B

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    The realization of salvation happens despite who you are, the outward change happens despite who you were. It's evidence of God working in you, and should be noticeable, continue to be noticeable, as you grow in Christ.
    In other words, a baby Christian might still evidence the outer appearance of the world, as one's salvation progresses it should happen less and less.
    So yeah, I believe outward appearance is also important. I would have a hard time accepting someone claiming to represent Christ who didn't evidence any outward change whatsoever.
    Gina
     
  4. Mike McK

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    Outstanding, Lorelei.
     
  5. Don

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    Ah, but what outward appearance are you looking for?
     
  6. Gina B

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    A few things are usually evidences. Not that unsaved people don't exhibit the same things, but for the most part....

    Cleanliness
    Manner of speech
    How and what a person talks about
    Non-Smoking
    Non-Drinking
    Modest clothing
    Types of acceptable entertainment
    Etc.

    None of it directly impacting your salvation or a way to positively judge if one is saved, but you gotta note that altogether it's a lot easier to tell Christians apart from non-Christians because of some of these things, therefore I see it as evidence of a true belief. (ie a saving type faith)

    Gina
     
  7. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    Gina,

    I know a lot of people that are doing all of those things and they aren't saved in the way that we know salvation. They were saved by a Jesus that required them to be baptized and caused them to speak in tongues. They will fit your description, but they do all of those things because if they don't live Holy enough they will go to hell.

    The outward appearance only shows us what the flesh is doing. The fruit of the Spirit is "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control". No where do I see that the evidence of salvation is tongues, what you wear, what you say, what you do etc.

    The evidence that you are walking in the Spirit is revealed through your attitude not your appearance. Believe me, I know many Christians that would fit your description but they don't show ANY of the fruits listed above. It isn't very peaceful, kind, or gentle to have a holier than thou attitude, and many who fit that description are just that way.

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. Wisdom Seeker

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    I think the difference is that Christ should be perceived in us by our peculiarity.

    Our peculiarity doesn't make us saved...but when a person is saved and allows that faith in Christ to grow...it effects our thoughts and directs our actions...this is most noticable seen in our being different in our appearance, our demeanor, our preferences in entertainment or language.

    The person that is seen by the unsaved should be easily deserned from other unsaved... sometimes it's just a softening in tone of voice, in the kindness seen in a persons eyes, in how they respond to other people...but it is also deserned by how a person tends to dress. How a person responds to stress is often how I identify other Christians...when they can put a sincere smile on their face...that came from a much deaper place... they might as well have a sign over their heads that says I know who my redeemer is. Haven't you seen it? It's not cloths...it's deeper than that.
     
  9. Refreshed

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    Sorry to butt in, just some scripture to help in the debate.

    Jas:2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Jas:2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    Jas:2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    Jas:2:20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Jas:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jas:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    Jas:2:23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Jas:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Jas:2:25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    Jas:2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    So, are works important at all? It seems so by this passage.

    [ December 09, 2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Refreshed ]
     
  10. massdak

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    evidences?????
    Cleanliness
    Manner of speech
    How and what a person talks about
    Non-Smoking
    Non-Drinking
    Modest clothing
    Types of acceptable entertainment
    Etc.

    i think the only biblical evidence is trusting in the shed blood of Christ. not all the outward junk you describe. i have seen churches split over the legalistic junk of women wearing modest pants. shame on legalist.
     
  11. SueLyn

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    Thank You Lorelei. [​IMG]
     
  12. jimslade

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    Did you kill someone today? or did you steal from someone today? What law are we not under?

    Just trying to make people not make blanket statements!
     
  13. Refreshed

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    I edited my post above to make it shorter. I have a bad habit of posting long posts. Accept my apologies. I also added a note.

    Thanks!
     
  14. ChristianCynic

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    I don't thnk you have anything to be concerned about then; and neither do I, for that matter.
     
  15. Helen

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    Amen, Lorelei! Thank you for much for taking the time to post that.

    It was asked, in reference to murder, etc., what law we are not under. We are not under ANY law regarding salvation. We are under the laws of the land where we live, however.

    In addition, Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and led by Him, and thus they will not be led into violating any of God's commands.

    The primary way in which a Christian's new life is exhibited outwardly is in attitude: a new humility, a new caring for others, a new carefulness in many ways. Bit by bit, as the Holy Spirit works within the believer, outward actions will reflect the condition of salvation more and more -- the taste for things like, perhaps, horror movies, will simply drop away; the over-use of liquor or, in the case of someone having a problem with liquor, any use of liquor will disappear; apologies will be made to people offended; business dealings will begin to reflect a straightforward honesty; smiles will come more frequently -- these things and so many others will result. They do not save a person, but they do reflect a life saved and governed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Now all these things CAN be imitated by the non-Christian. But something else cannot: the glow and heartfelt friendliness of the true Christian is something no one can imitate. When God's love starts spilling out of a life that has been soaking in it, there is nothing else like it -- even remotely -- on this earth.
     
  16. Johnv

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    It was asked, in reference to murder, etc., what law we are not under. We are not under ANY law regarding salvation. We are under the laws of the land where we live, however.

    In addition, Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and led by Him, and thus they will not be led into violating any of God's commands.


    Amen!!! I second that thought!!
     
  17. Lorelei

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    This is so right! If we are led by the Spirit we will show the fruit of the Spirit. Bit by bit God will work in our life if we let him.

    Too many times people are trying to act out the fruit. They are working at being Spirit filled, but they don't realize it. They read not to do this, so they don't do it, but their heart doesn't feel the joy in not doing it. Then they add a little something here and a little something there. The next thing you know, you have a list of dos and don'ts to follow. Then, because you think you have this all figured out, you then begin to expect this same criteria from every other person that you meet. You start teaching them that to obey these rules is what it really means to walk in the Spirit. The motivation was good, they meant to do well. But they were trying to do it themselves. That isn't being led by the Spirit that is working at it, plain and simple.

    I hope most of you know that I am not out here advocating sin, far from it. As Paul said, should we then make void the law through faith? God Forbid! But we uphold the law by letting the Spirit lead us. Keeping our eyes on Christ and him alone is the only way. We don't make lists for people adhere to. We don't readvocate old laws in order to make sure that church that teaches these rules is financially able to do so. We don't encourage our brothers in Christ by pointing our fingers at them. We encourage them by pointing them to the life that Christ gave us.

    Thanks for the encouragement, it is nice to see that so many of you have found the freedom and joy of walking in the Spirit!

    ~Lorelei
     
  18. Molly

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    Being filled with the spirit is living in obedience to God's word.
     
  19. jimslade

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    The ONLY law that we are under is that we are called to be HOLY, Separate and Peculiar. We as believers are not under the sacrificial Laws.

    When we are called to be Holy that is a great responsibility.

    Freedom from the Law is not a DO YOUR OWN THING RESPONCE to Gods Laws as many believers feel.

    Understanding the concept of "Being Holy as I AM Holy" overstates the power of the Law.
     
  20. dan53

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    Hey; if it is not violating any Scripture (God's Word not man's dogma) and if it doesn't break any laws of the land ... go for it !

    Didn't Pau; say to be all things to all men... so as to win some !

    We can separate ourselves out of the world so that we can no longer be an effective witness for Christ ! If we are not to be associated withthe world then why don't we just press the go home button and go to heaven ? We are left here (this world) to be witnesses of the Good News ! Who did Jesus hang with ? Not the clean and upstanding church folks... their the ones that got envious and crucified Him. He spoke to ALL and met them at their point of need !! I guess I am just not with it... I follow His ezample; hope that is good enough for ya !

    Dan :D :D :cool: :cool:
     

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