Oil and Virgins

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Hope of Glory, Jul 12, 2006.

  1. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    For those who see that the foolish virgins had to have oil in order for their lamps to be going out, do you agree that oil represents the Holy Spirit, or do you think it means something else?

    Does it mean that unsaved people have the Holy Spirit?

    Does it mean that saved people can lose their salvation?

    Does it mean that they just weren't quite saved enough?

    Or does it mean something else?

    I don't want to debate suppositions outside of the Scriptures such as "they were lying" or anything like that. This is just for those who realize that the foolish virgins had oil, but they were running out.
     
  2. tinytim

    tinytim
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    I still believe that it is referring to Israel once having God's favor, but some of them refused to acknowledge Christ for who he was. Their lamps went out.

    John 1:11-12
    (11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


    The whole context behind the chapters 23-25 should be viewed from this verse:
    Mat 23:37-39
    (37)
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
    (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    (39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    That's my take on it.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

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    I do not have enough time to type post, because I have to work 3rd shift tonight. Tomorrow, I will discuss on Matt. 25:1-13.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Tiny Tim, I can see the analogy there, but Israel is the bride of Jehovah.

    However, in Matthew 22:3, the master sent his servants to call those who were bidden to the marriage. The Greek is actually a play on words that is "call the called". It was a Jewish custom to invite a second time those who are already invited. The prophets had already given the invitation. Then the rest of the parable tells how they go out into the world to call in guests. However, the "elect" are those that are from a group of the chosen. Many are called (the saved) but few are called out (elect).

    So, just as Eleazar went to Abraham's family to take a bride out for Isaac, did Jesus come to his Father's people and not find a faithful bride, nor find those to attend the wedding feast?

    I think there are many types and pictures in the OT that have both a short term fulfillment, and a long term fulfillment. There are many pictures and/or prophecies that were fulfilled in the 1st century, but I think they also have an as yet future fulfillment.

    The picture that we're given of David and Saul is an example of that. The picture of the Bride. The list goes on and on.

    That's an aspect that I'd not thought of.
     
  5. tinytim

    tinytim
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    Something else just came to mind... The book of Matthew was written to show that Jesus was the Christ... The King the Jews should have been looking for.. If a person looks at the parables in Matthew together it proves that the Jews missed the Messiah.

    The more I study this scripture the more I see the foolish virgins as Isreal, and the wise as the church.
     
  6. tinytim

    tinytim
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    This is from the NET bible:

    25:1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 25:2 Five1 of the virgins2 were foolish, and five were wise. 25:3 When3 the foolish ones took their lamps, they did not take extra4 olive oil5 with them. 25:4 But the wise ones took flasks of olive oil with their lamps. 25:5 When6 the bridegroom was delayed a long time, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 25:6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is here! Come out to meet him.’7 25:7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 25:8 The8 foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 25:9 ‘No,’ they replied.9 ‘There won’t be enough for you and for us. Go instead to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 25:10 But while they had gone to buy it, the bridegroom arrived, and those who were ready went inside with him to the wedding banquet. Then10 the door was shut. 25:11 Later,11 the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’12 25:12 But he replied,13 ‘I tell you the truth,14 I do not know you!’ 25:13 Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour.15

    1tn Here δέ (de) has not been translated.
    2tn Grk “Five of them.”
    3tn Grk “For when.” Here γάρ (gar) has not been translated.
    4tn The word “extra” is not in the Greek text but is implied. The point is that the five foolish virgins had only the oil in their lamps, but took along no extra supply from which to replenish them. This is clear from v. 8, where the lamps of the foolish virgins are going out because they are running out of oil.
    5tn On the use of olive oil in lamps, see L&N 6.202.
    6tn Here δέ (de) has not been translated.
    7tc ‡ Most witnesses have αὐτοῦ (autou, “[with] him”) after ἀπάντησιν (apanthsin, “meeting”), a reading which makes explicit what is already implied in the shorter text (as found in א B 700). The translation likewise adds “him” for clarity’s sake even though the word is not considered part of the original text. NA27 has αὐτοῦ in brackets, indicating doubts as to its authenticity.
    8tn Here δέ (de) has not been translated.
    9tn Grk “The wise answered, saying, ‘No.’”
    10tn Here καί (kai) has been translated as “then” to indicate the implied sequence of events within the narrative.
    11tn Here δέ (de) has not been translated.
    12tn Grk “Open to us.”
    13tn Grk “But answering, he said.” This is somewhat redundant and has been simplified in the translation.
    14tn Grk “Truly (ἀμήν, amhn), I say to you.”
    15tc Most later mss (C3 Ë13 1424c Ï) also read here “in which the Son of Man is coming” (ἐν ᾗ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἔρχεται, en |h Jo Juio" tou anqrwpou ercetai), reproducing almost verbatim the last line of Matt 24:44. The longer reading thus appears to be an explanatory expansion and should not be considered authentic. The earlier and better witnesses ({Ì35 א A B C* D L W Δ Θ Ë1 33 565 892 1424* lat co}) lack this phrase.



    Just thought this might help add to the discussion.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

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    I am supposed go to work tonight. But, my car is not start running. I did asked my neighbors to help me to put jumper cables on the battery. But, the car is not running. I guess that the starter is dead, or battery is dead. I did called to my work that, I cannot go to work tonight because of struck. Hope my car will be fixed tomorrow, so, I will be able go to work.

    Tinytim,

    Your interpreting is a type of dispensationalism.

    The whole context of Matthew chapter 25 always apply to us of every individual. This chapter deals talking about judgment day.

    Matthew 25:1-13 is deal with us as every individual.

    Being 'virgin' means to be pure life without defiled or sins, walking in the light.

    The five wise virgins with oil, they are represent that they are ready and did prepared for their spiritual life, did walking holiness for the Lord daily. In other word, having oil with them, show that they are walking in the light according First epistle of John chapter 1. The five foolish virgins without oil, they are represent that, they are walking in the dark, filled with sins, no repent.

    All ten virgins are on the same boat or group.

    When their bridegroom(Christ) comes, the five wise virgins with oil are ready to go. The five foolish virgins begging them, need borrow oil. The 5 wise virgins telling them, sorry they do not have enough left to give them. The 5 wise virgins are on the way to meet bridegroom. Once the door closed and shut. The five fool virgins run to the door, and knocking begging their Lord to open. The Lord tells them, "I know you NOT." That means, the five fool virgins' chance or opporunity of their salvation is too late.

    In Jeremiah 8:20 says: "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

    Once the door(harvest) is shut, then salvation is finished.

    Then, it will be too late for five fool virgins to repent of their sins, and these who are not prepared and watch for Christ's coming, shall be end up in the everlasting fire.

    That why we must always be watch and ready all the times - Matt. 25:13. Because we alll shall face the judgment seat of Christ what shall be our conclusion of our future eternity destiny - eternal life or everlasting punishment. Our life is short like as vapour, shall be vanshing away - James 4:14. That why, we must always be watch and ready all the times, not know when we will die or Lord comes.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. J. Jump

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    So in DeafPostTrib's response we see really the only other way to look at the passage. They are all saved (no way to get around that), but the question becomes can we lose our salvation with DPT says or is salvation secure.

    And the Bible answers that for us, because we are saved apart from any of our works and our salvation is based SOLELY on the works of Christ, so we did nothing to gain salvation and there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation.

    So therefore we are only left with on interpretation and that is that all were saved, but five missed out on something. And the very first verse gives us the context and that is the kingdom of the heavens. So the five foolish miss the kingdom of the heavens not eternal salvation.

    The amazing thing about the Bible is that it interprets Itself. We don't have to do any interpreting on our own. We just have to let the Bible say what the Bible says. And when we compare right Scripture with Scripture, and build precept upon precept and line upon line the Holy Spirit WILL guide us into ALL Truth!

    Our God is an AWESOME God!!! He leaves nothing to chance, if we will only trust Him!!
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    J.J.,

    you say:
    Matt. 25:1-13 say nothing about 1,000 years or millennial age. This is speak of salvation issue, that we must be prepared for our spiritual life, having oil is represent that we must walk in the light, do not walk in the dark - sins. When Christ comes, our works shall be delcared or make manifested at the judgment, that we are ready, and shall enter eternal lufe with Christ. Or, if we continue in sins by the time Lord comes, then shall not enter into eternal life, but go into everlasting fire.

    Matt 25:1-13 deals with our walk.

    Matt. 25:14-30 deals with our works.

    Matt. 25:31-46 deals with our attitude and towards others.

    The whole context of chapter 25 is a serious matter on salvation and eternal.

    Notice at the last verse 46 of Matthew 25 says, "And these(goats) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous(sheep) into LIFE ETERNAL."

    Clear, this whole context of chapter 25 is a serious matter talk about our salvation & judgment day at Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. J. Jump

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    DPT you understand clearly that this chapter is dealing with Christians in relation to judgment day, but what you fail to realize that judgment is only about works and not about salvation.

    Eternal salvation is something that is decided before one ever enters judgment.

    We will be judged as to what we did in this body whether good or bad. That has nothing at all to do with whether or not we believed in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Christ.

    If we believe that then we have already been judged. And we passed because Christ passed. His death and shed blood is credited to our account as if we died and shed our own blood. And the very moment that we believe eternal salvation then becomes a non-issue for the rest of our life. Done deal to the glory of God!!!!

    You like many others are trying to combine two different aspects of Scripture and you are cramming them together so hard you are destroying both messages.
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

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    J.J.,

    Cannot you understand what Matt. 25:41 & 46 saying??? This is a matter of salvation and eternal issue.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

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    To say the five foolish virgins are saved even though the Lord says 'I know you not' is giving people a license to sin. It is telling them they can confess Christ and still not be prepared for Him, walk in their sins and they will be saved anyway. That is another gospel other than that which the Apostle Paul preached and it is also contrary to the gospel that Christ Jesus taught.
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    standingfirminchrist,

    You are partially correct. This teaching of Matt. 25:1-13 saying that the five foolish virgins are continuing in sins, not prepared for Christ, are still saved anyway, that is 'another gospel'.

    That is correct.

    Often, I hear many Christians saying, these are turn away and sinning, are not saved IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    That is not true.

    Matt. 25:1-13; Matt. 25:14-30; and Matt. 25:31-46 always teaching us, that we are saved in the first place, also, all ten virgins have their oil in the first place. And all three servants with their talents in the first place. Afterward, many of them do not carry oil or not use their talent, will be end up in everlasting fire, for disobedient the Lord, and not serving the Lord, and stay in sinning life.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. Hope of Glory

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    So, are you saying they lost their salvation?

    Are you saying they did not work hard enough for their salvation?
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    HoG,

    Yes.

    Jude 3 - "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and EXHORT you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

    Jude has right of his concerning of his brethrens, that he doesn't want to see them falling away, he was speak of the matter on salvation.

    2 Peter 1:10 - "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence TO MAKE your calling and election SURE: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

    Many were called in the first place, but, afterward, few are chosen because of their unfaithful and falling away are not election.

    No, no, no.

    The Lord is not interesting how much, big, or small duty, we are doing, He is interesting in our faithful.

    Remmeber the classic comic story of the race beween rabbit and turtl. I forget their character's names. I am sure some of you already know what I am talking about when you were kid, you already heard popular classic comic story of them.

    Rabbit has his great ability and speed, he could win the race so easily because of his speed. Turtle has his small ablility, and little bit of speed. He could easily lose the race. Once the race begins, a rabbit swooshes away, the turtle flipping down as it turns updown side of its' shell on the ground. Rabbit ahead of turtle about thousands of yards apart away. The rabbit sees the finish line, not distance away from where he stopped, and he looks backward thousands of yards away of the road, and didn't see the turtle appears. So, a rabbit decides to lay down and sleep for a while. The turtle is so behind away from rabbit, but he is stay stubborn and already determined stay in the race, keeping on running all the way to the finish line without stop. Turtle running as he catching up rabbit might take about hours. As the hours passed, the turtle is about approaching the finish line. A rabbit wake up from his nap, notice turtle is approaching the finish line. In rabbit's mind saying, "OH NO!!!!", then he running speed up try to beat turtle to reach the finish line. But, it is too late, turtle just past the finish line beat rabbit, suddenly the rabbit run past turtle so quickly. But, it is TOOOOOO LATE for rabbit, he loses the race! Turtle wins the race.

    Christ is interesting in our faithful, no matter how big or small ability, we use, He interesting us, that we stay faithful all the way to the end(Matt. 10:22; & 24:13) then shall be saved.

    In other word, suppose a servant have five talents, that is pretty big than a servant with one talent. BUT, a servant does not use 5 talents, while a servant uses talent. At the judgment day, when they shall face Christ. A servant who have five talents, but, not use them, shall be suffer loss and cast away into everlasting fire. A servant did use talent, and do it for the Lord, shall enter everlasting life with Christ.

    I am speaking of Matt. 25:14-30 on talents.

    But, also, I am talking of having oil, showing that we should be faithful to the Lord, keep carry the light all the way to end then shall be saved. Or, if we do not walking in the light, stay in the dark - sinning, shall be cast into everlasting fire.

    Clear, Bible teaching us of conditional with warnings, now way that we can afford to neglect them. We must take heed wha God's Words saying, we must follow them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. J. Jump

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    Are you kidding me? It's quite the opposite. It is your view and the view of others that everybody gets the same thing that gives people a license to sin.

    This view says if you want to live your life like that there are going to be consequences. Your view has no consequences of any significance.

    I can live a life of sin and rebellion in your view and still get my little patch of paradise in the corner, but it's paradise after all and that's all I need. So live it up now and get the same thing everyone else gets in the end. You get to have your caked and eat it to with your view.

    Yeah that's because our salvation is not based on our works, prior to, during or after the very moment we believe. Our eternal salvation is based ONLY on the works of Christ.
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    The Psalmist said in Psalm 66:18:
    If one is giving the sinner the impression that he or she can make a profession of faith in Christ, and not turn away from sins, that profession is a dead profession. It is meaningless.

     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    One can believe all they want... It still does not mean they are saved. The devils also believe, but they can never be saved

    If one does not have a repentent heart, God will not even hear a cry for forgiveness.

    Repentence means turning away from sin, not continuing in it.
     
  19. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    What must I do to be saved?

    Believe on the Lord Jesus...

    Plus what?

    Plus nothing.

    and you will be saved. Period.

    Also, could you please show me the passage where demons were offered salvation. (I assume you're talking about demons even though you typed "devils".)

    OK, now we're getting somewhere.

    If our spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited, how does you justify this with the contradiction in Acts 16:30-31?

    What must I do to be saved?

    Believe (punctiliar action) on the Lord Jesus and you will (indicative; no doubt about it) be saved.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    So, all one has to do is Believe and they are saved? Isn't this in sharp contradiction to Jesus' own words when He said,

    Repentence from sin does not mean continuing in sin. If one preaches all one has to do for salvation is believe, one is leading others down a dark path of deceit of which end is destruction.

     

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