OK different angle

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by TBLADY, Mar 25, 2007.

  1. TBLADY

    TBLADY
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    I tried to ask this on another thread and no one responded to the question at hand but went a different way.

    Who here believes the sign gifts are still in effect today or who believes they died out with the apostles?

    Is what is happening in churches today for real or is Satan fooling alot of people?
     
  2. bapmom

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    Satan's fooling alot of people about alot of things.

    I believe the sign gifts are no longer in effect for today. For the most part tongues as it is practiced today is not Biblical.
     
  3. donnA

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    Todays tongues is in no way biblical, meaning it is either fake or from satan.
     
  4. Salty

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    Whenever I talk to someone about tounges (in English :laugh: ) I asked them if they follow the rules as outlined in I Cor 13. Most are not even aware of the rules.

    Therefore, I would say IF someone spoke in tounges and all the Biblical rules were followed then it would appear it would be of the Lord.

    Many say that the gift of tonges ended with the Apostles. If so, what is the Scripture that backs it up

    Bapmom said in post # 2 "For the MOST part tongues as it is practiced today is not Biblical." My question Bapmom: what part of tounges today is Biblical? (NOTE: Caps and bold added for emphasis by Salty)
     
  5. bapmom

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    Salty,

    Ive heard of one (maybe two) instances in which a soul winner was witnessing to someone who could not understand the speaker's language, and apparently God intervened and allowed understanding to happen during presentation of the gospel. The instance I speak of was with a Chinese lady here in America, and she seemed to understand and get saved.....though she spoke no English.
    This was related to us by people we know and trust, and who are experienced CHristians........however, it is still a second-hand story.

    So when I say "for the most part" I only mean that God could choose to allow an instance of Biblical tongues today.
     
  6. Jon-Marc

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    The original "tongues" were known languages. At Pentacost when the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, they spoke in the languges of the people that were there so that everyone marveled that these unlearned men were able to speak the gospel in their languages. They were NOT unknown tongues or gibberish as I once heard in a pentacostal church. No one interpreted, and all I heard the woman muttering was "Ah ditty" over and over and over. Even I could do that.
     
  7. TBLADY

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    Acts 2:43, Acts 4:30, Acts 5:12, Acts 8:13, Acts 14:3, Rom 15:20, 2 Cor 12,12

    The Bible says in 1 Cor 13:8-10 that Tongues will cease....in the Greek meaning STOP and never start again. It wasn't till 1961 in a penticostal church through a "women" preacher that people started "speaking in tongues" Tongues according to scripture was for UNBELIEVERS not Believers 1Cor 14:22...tongues were a SIGN to the unbelieving jews who always required signs to show the speaker was indeed from God. Acts 2:12-36, Acts 2:22, 1 Cor 14:22, 1 Cor 1:22, Heb 2:3-4. for the disciples Acts 2:2-4, Acts 1:8. Tongues were a KNOWN Dialect Acts 2:6 and 2:8-11, Acts 2:5-11

    According to 1 Cor 13:8-10 we need no other truth than what is in the Bible, the Bible is Complete so we do not need new revelations or interpetaions or knowledge.
     
    #7 TBLADY, Mar 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2007
  8. webdog

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    Maybe she was sayin "oddity" :)
     
  9. Sober_Baptist

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    Right on! Ah ditty, ah ditty, ah man. :tonofbricks:
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    I have it !!

    I have the gift of tongues. I was born in the Philippines, speak the main dialect, or tongue, which is Tagalog, and speak, read, and write three more dialects, or tongues, which are Cebuano, Waray, and Hiligaynon, plus a smattering of other dialects, or tongues, spoken in every compass point of my country.

    I can speak, read, and write the English tongue.

    I have preached the glory of the cross, the power of the resurrection, the beauty of God's holiness, the coming glory of God's children, the gospel and the whole counsel of God in these different tongues.

    yes, the gift of tongues is still here.

    I have seen it in Arminian missionaries, in Calvinist missionaries, and in Primitive Baptist brethren.

    Not everybody has this gift, though.

    And not everyone that has this gift are in the Christian communities, either. Some CIA's have it, one of my son's fellow Air Force officer have it, he speaks classical Tagalog, much like if I spoke in King James 1611 English, understandest thou what I meaneth ?

    But this gift is not the gift of tongues that the likes of Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, and others of like persuasion point to as proof of one's salvation and sanctification.

    It is not the gibberish that is labeled "heavenly prayer".

    My pentecostal sister said that one night she had this urge to pray in "tongues" for her husband so she dropped to her knees and started to pray and sure enough she started speaking in "tongues" and felt the "holy spirit" penetrate her from the sole of the feet upwards to the top of her head.

    I pointed out the Holy Spirit is God, God is in Heaven, so why did the "penetration" start from the sole of her feet ? :laugh:

    She didn't speak to me for months.
     
  11. Baptist Bible Believer

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    Pinoy Baptist, while you are able to converse in different dialects of your country (Tagalog being the national language) and in English - you are not basing upon this a belief that "tongues" are still present in the sense they were in Acts 2, are you?

    If tongues were present today, then missionaries could go to the field and bypass language school - since GOD would see to it that they have all they need to preach the Gospel with.

    I have been labouring for nigh unto six years now trying to learn Polish as a hobby (memorizing Galatians at present in Polish) - again, if the sign gift of tongues were present today - I would have to say I am wasting my time studying and should go find someone to witness to on Milwaukee Avenue (in Chicago) today!

    I know that is coming across as 'in your face' - which I don't really mean to do - just trying to prevent the confusion of misunderstanding. There is a distinction between someone whose natural tongue is one thing and acquiring a second or third language set through experience and the miraculous phenomena present in the apostolic era.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    BBB:

    No I am not saying the sign gift of tongues is present today.
    Like I said, I do not agree with speaking in "tongues" as taught by Swaggart, Robertson, and company, and I think even Hagee speaks in "tongues".
    I am saying that some people are gifted with the ability to learn language easily, and they need not be Christians either.
    Many people just don't have that ability, or gift.
    I appreciate your struggle to learn the Polish language, I am sure I won't be able to learn that.
    Gosh, I can't even speak Spanish well enough, although I can read Spanish, and my grandfather and grandmother tried to raise me in that language when I was a kid.
     
  13. Salty

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    Bumping this - its been almost a year - any new thoughts? :1_grouphug:

    Salty

    ps, no opinions - statements should be based your beliefs on (quoted) Bible passaged :jesus:
     
  14. kturner25

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    I've met several people who approach me as a Christain, and brother in the faith until they ask me about speaking in tounges. They contended that speaking in tounges is not just a sign of salvation, but THE sign of salvation. They actually told me my salvation experience and continuing walk with the Lord was invalid.

    My Pastor had just finished teaching a series of SS lessons on tounges, so I was able to show them 1 Cor 14:22 "Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe." I don't believe they had ever read that verse and saw it light of what they believed. The discussion then centered around the book of 1st Corinthians, and I quickly discovered they did not practice the gift biblically. Their only response was "when the Spirit of God comes on you, you can't resist, you can't stop the tounges from coming out".

    We didn't talk much on the subject after that. In fact, they seemed to avoid talking with me from that point on.
     
  15. Beth

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    My concern

    We have had much the same experience as you. The theology which you are alluding to also tends to lead in other odd directions.

    We have had a pentecostal minister actually try to convince us that there are TWO Spirits which a believer needs to receive. He bases that on Ephesians, where the "Spirit of God" is, in his opinion, different from the "Spirit of Christ".

    There is a hint as well of different "levels" of a Christian, with one who has been "empowered" on a higher, more powerful plane, than one who has merely been "sealed" for salvation. As if the latter is somehow ineffective and somewhat deficient.

    Shortly after my husband and I had left the cult of Armstrongism, when looking for a local fellowship, a Calvary Chapel was recommended to us by friends. We attended there for six months...we were completely ignorant of pentecostal theology. Frankly, it was an eye opener. We were given the founder's books to read. One book by the founder urged that believers seek out the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", with speaking in tongues being the evidence of receiving this baptism. The book implied that American churches would not be so "dead" if there was a revival of this baptism with speaking in tongues.:tonofbricks:

    Shortly before we left, I went to a woman's fellowship night. The pastor's wife put on some kind of music which was somewhat repetitive...all instrumental. She explained that there didn't seem to be much serving in the fellowship, and that perhaps folks hadn't had the baptism of the HOly Spirit...you could be SAVED but not have received this other baptism. She explained that she was going to go around the room and lay hands on everyone...and don't be surprised if you "feel" something...tingly up and down your legs or arms!!! Of course, now I realize what she was saying was she was going to IMPART this spirit on other believers..(I do hope this wasn't the Toronto Blessing, but at the time we had no knowledge of that heresy). Anyway, that night, nothing unusual happened with the ladies there, and now, years later, I have run into different ladies who have left that church and are in other independent Baptist churches in our area, Praise the Lord!
     
  16. exscentric

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    "Many say that the gift of tonges ended with the Apostles. If so, what is the Scripture that backs it up"

    Since tongues and healing usually go together if one passed then the other most likely passed as well.

    People were healed by handkerchiefs taken from the apostle Paul, yet he could not heal himself later in life, nor could he heal Timothy, not could he heal a couple of others thus his gift of healing evidently passed away in his own lifetime.

    Acts 19.12
    II Cor. 12.7ff
    I Tim. 5.23
    II Tim. 4.20
    Phil. 2.25ff

    Also the last part of Mark ties the sign gifts to poison/snakes and that seems to have passed away as well.

    Mark 16.17ff

    And one passage that slipped by me for many years is I Cor. 14.39-40 ("Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues . 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.")which comes in the context of the afore mentioned I Cor. 13 rules.

    I usually suggest one final logical item - if tongues and healing are still in effect as Paul had them, then go to your local hospital, empty it of all the sick and inform the local newspaper - we will all hear of it on the news I'd guess.
     
  17. gb93433

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    Quite a number of gifts are in use today. It depends on the use if they glorify God or not. Many today see preaching as being of God yet many preachers are frauds and use their pulpit to beat people over the head with their worthless opinion.

    The improper use of any gift is wrong and you cannot justify the misues of any gift as being of God.

    What Paul did in 1 Cor was to guide its proper use and it is likely that the mususe would die. His point was not a debate about whether gifts existed but their proper use. I believe that a lot of improper uses are in effect today bring self glory rather than giving God glory and honor.
     
  18. Salty

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    Should we bump this
     
  19. gb93433

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    I would say that is not limited to speaking in tongues but everything that is done. So many churches are the reults of splits. I think that says something. It could be good and it could be bad. I believe it says something about church discipine and division.
     
  20. Salty

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    So Very True
     

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