OK... I still have these nagging questions:

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Aug 17, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    1) Do ME'er's believe in the rapture of the church??

    2) If so, how could we come to be judged on the earth as in Mt 24:46??

    3) Do they believe that we are in a "partial" MK now (we have new covenant, we are in the kingdom of Christ, "exclusion" is in force via church discipline already, 1Cor 5:5, 13, Mt 18:15-18)??

    To be looking to the MK of ISRAEL as applying to the church is errant doctrine, y'all. Rightly divide the word, folks -- OT vs. NT.

    And look, if you can't answer these questions, I understand. I really do. If you don't have the answers, it's cause your inspiration hasn't discovered them either.

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Aug 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2007
  2. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Speaking for myself only and on the condition that I will NOT debate this; I am only answering your questions. Should my answers spawn additional questions on your part for the purpose of information and not for the purpose of endless debate, I will endeavour to provide further answers.
    If you are in agreement;my answers are as follows:

    1. Yes. I believe in the rapture of the church. Of course, it is understood that there are a number of various views as to how this all pans out. In my understanding, the 'rapture' is only a partial rapture, and this subject alone can develope into dozens of pages of dialogue.

    2. This passage in Matt. 24 does not illustrate a 'judgment upon the earth' as you have stated. It IS however a picture of the JSOC. It is my understanding that the JSOC takes place in the air during the time that the "tribulation period" is taking place here upon the earth. They who have been judged worthy of the Kingdom are they who return physically to the earth with the Lord at the time He comes to set up His MK. This, too, can develope into dozens of pages of dialogue and discussion.

    3. You have here included three doctrines. A) The spiritual aspect of the Kingdom of God; B) Covenant Theology and C) Church discipline. Which did you wish to address? Your question here appears to be less of a question and more of a statement about your particular doctrinal bent. Consequently, I am not going to offer any answers here since they do not help to clarify anything of substance.

    4. Finally, you inject your understanding of Dispensational Theology,(apparently) and you do so in such a dogmatic fashion it is apparent to me that you are baiting an argument. What Dispensational Theology fails to address is the simple fact that the "Kingdom" was given to ADAM but he forfeited it long ago in the Garden. Hence; the "Kingdom" is not exclusively an Israelitish possession, and consequently the Dispensationalists "rightly divide" a doctrine which is not to be "divided".


    Your final comment is just so much patronization and insult. It hardly even deserves a reply.:smilewinkgrin:

    As I said in the outset of my reply. I furnish these answers FYI only. But if you have HONEST questions so you may better UNDERSTAND our position, I will happily engage you in discussion. But if you are looking for a fight, look elsewhere. K?
     
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Skypair, this kinda outta character for you. Are you mad at us? I thought the first part of the post had potential. I'd love to discuss the partial rapture with you. But I'm tired. I've been running around in circles on these issues for days with people who seemingly ask questions like a poodle trainer asking me to jump through hoops. It doesn't matter how many hoops I jump through, there's always another one and the last one is forgotten.
     
    #3 Lacy Evans, Aug 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2007
  4. lbaker

    lbaker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2006
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd like to hear more about the partial rapture.

    Les
     
  5. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim -- Yeah, as Lacy noted, I'm getting a little short of grace myself on this issue. Sorry. I could have left that last off. #3 was a question, though.

    Partial rapture -- or like the 5 foolish virgins where unbelievers in the church are left behind?? See, that last makes great sense to me. The "foolish" may even be excluded from the MK if they never believe. They may, indeed, see hell for 1000 years. But I would submit that they will then appear at yet the 3rd JSOC, the GWT, and go to the "lake of fire."

    Anyway, consider that -- no answer necessary. I am just hoping to provide "food for thought," meditation, and prayer.

    There are 2 in view here -- one in heaven and one on the earth. Regardless of when you see the rapture, ALL views of timing I've ever heard see JSOC in heaven postrapture and on earth postrib.

    True.

    First, I reject Covenant Theology so that is NOT in play here for me. My question on this point may have been editorializing to this extent -- that I tried to challenge ME-ers to see that there are 2 kingdoms to which their assertions relate: 1) Christ's church age spiritual kingdom and 2) His MK/1000 year reign physically. If you are a willful, unrepentant sinner and cast out of the church today, it could be because you are an unbeliever and won't make the rapture. If that were to be the case, you would be "excluded" from the rapture and, unless you repent (something Jesus told the left behind churches in Rev 2-3 to do), you will be "excluded" from the MK as well.

    I'd like to hear more ME-ers respond to this assertion. Just comparing it, wouldn't that be saying that in the MK, we rule animals??

    I believe I have heard ME-ers claim reign over the "kingdom of the heavenlies," right? Isn't that why we are raptured to heaven in the first place? Our inheritance and "kingdom" is heavenly and Israel's is earthly?? As I see it, we will eternally live in NJ and Israel in NE.

    Please, seriously consider these points and reply with your thoughts. As Lacy will tell you, after my original resistance I have been trying to unite the sides by helping everyone see the truth that exists on both sides of these issues.

    Same as I did with Calvinism, I initially (like many of your detractors here) pooh-poohed what I hadn't considered throughly. But there are some good points that ME-ers are trying to communicate to the rest of us and I am just trying to put them into perspective. :praying:

    skypair
     
  6. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was actually glad to see one thread shut down. I'm tired, too, of reading through all the vituperation and no one trying to understand a brother's view. If we could just sit back and listen once in a while, wouldn't that be great?!

    BTW, what did you discover about "servants?" The post I offered regarding "servants" in the parables being Israel/Jews. I think that is a key to many issues here but I couldn't find your response.

    skypair
     
  7. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I missed it can you PM me the link to the post and I'll look.

    I had typed up a whole big thing on the partial rapture but when I hit enter I got this crazy message about DSNs and ISPs. I tried and tried then the folks at Time warner told me to clear my cache and wala! Im Back.

    I'm gonna go to bed now. My energy level is on empty so (Edited because my wife just told me that tomorrow is not Sunday and we are not adventists.)

    Anyway, good night

    -Lacy
     
    #7 Lacy Evans, Aug 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2007
  8. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it's in that "dead" thread with the aphabet name. Basically, I alluded to the parables where servants are mentioned saying that in eacn case we ought to read "servants" dispensationally as Israel. This, of course, would obviate their reference to the church in such as Mt 24:14-30, etal..

    Then I quoted Jesus in John 15:15 (His famous "parting words," ch 14-17) where He told His disciples, "I no longer call you 'servant' but 'friend' for you know what I am doing." Of course, at that time, he couldn't even call them what He calls the church now --- BROTHER!

    Anyway, Jesus alluded to the church by all types of things --- virgins, field laborers, mustard seeds, goodman (this reference in Mt 24 has what I believe is the only counterpart in the OT, Isa 57:1 where the "merciful men" are called "goodmen" in some traslations and it seems to refer to the pretrib rapture of the church!), etc. --- but not "sevants."

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  9. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    The partial rapture is when your brains are taken to heaven first, followed much later by your bodies. It is only for ME folks, and it has already occurred.
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have another question that I asked in another thread:

    Do the ME'ers here on the BB believe the same way as Hodges when he says one only need to believe in Jesus to be saved and that they need not believe in the crucifixion?
     
  11. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had never heard this. Care to provide a quote, a reference to a sermon, or a book title and page number?
     
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I haven't forgotten this argument. I'm chewing on it.

    Where I'm holding up now is here: When reward and practical sanctification (The work-out-your-salvation-salvation) is in view we still seem to be viewed Biblically as servants.

    Where salvation and our absolute (positional) righteousness In Christ is in view, we are no longer servants.



    What sayest thou?
     
  13. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once again brother Lacy, you have illustrated the dichotomy of Scriptural words. Many folks within modern Christendom have lost either the ability or the desire to study out exactly what any given doctrinal word means within its context. It seems to me that most will assume "saved" always means for eternity, "sanctification" always is passive on our part, "redemption" always is about our spirit/soul (they do not seperate the two, i.e. 'soul' vs 'spirit) and so forth.

    This then is the root of the problem in my opinion. Faulty teaching and lazy study habits. Truly Paul accurately described our times when he spoke to those in his time:

    Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    (And what be those 'first principles of the oracles of God'? Simply the truth of a Kingdom lost and the Kingdom soon to be restored.)
     
    #13 av1611jim, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying that those of us out here in "Christendom" that don't accept the kingdom theology that you teach are just lazy in our Bible studies? We're still on milk and not solid food?
     
  15. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    No surprise you would take umbrage with the word "lazy" and ignore "faulty teaching". While you (personally) may not be lazy it is apparent you have accepted faulty teaching.

    And yes. If you haven't matured beyond Christ crucified, buried and resurrected on the third day, you are still on the milk of the word.

    You need not agree with every tenet of every pastor/teacher within Kingdom Accountability theology to mature beyond the erroneous teaching that Scripture is ALL about salavtion from sin. Before sin ever entered creation, a Kingdom was given to man. He forfeited it and the rest of Scripture is the history of God's restoration of that Kingdom to A MAN.

    I have made it clear that the Scripture BEGINS with a Kingdom and ENDS with a Kingdom, yet nobody has yet stepped to the plate to prove it wrong. They can't. Scripture is the history told and foretold about this Kingdom. And this Kingdom is a literal physical visible Kingdom with Spiritual aspects.

    Therefore; until you come to understand the truths of this Kingdom, yes, you are still dining on milk.
     
    #15 av1611jim, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  16. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  17. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes. Even the greatest theologians and most brilliant minds are lazy and unschooled, since they don't agree with ME. Joey "Faustus" Faust, on the other hand, is eating meat and has an unparalleled intellectual grasp of the gospel. Too bad he's too lazy to get a clue as to what the pre-wrath rapture is (hint: does not even resemble mid-trib, as he claims), but let's not pick nits.
    .
     
    #17 npetreley, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not surprised at your response.
    I'm not dining on milk, but you are dining on a false teaching.

    There's not much else to say.
     
  19. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    The ME motto for doctrinal ................wrong. ;)
     
    #19 npetreley, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  20. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have been reported.
     
    #20 av1611jim, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...