Ok so I'm Reformed in my beliefs now.

I am implying that out of one side of your mouth you are saying that we cannot fathom some truths about God and out of the other are applying your own arbitrary standards of fairness or sanity to things you say we cannot fathom. I think you got off track somewhere and started dismissing scriptures that say one thing about God's character because it conflicted with interpretations, extensions, and applications you have made concerning other scriptures concerning his character.

God is benevolent. God is also holy. God also expresses Himself in wrath against sin. God also uses the wicked acts of men to achieve His ultimate will. You cannot emphasize benevolence to the point of denying His other attributes.

If benevolence means what you imply then God cannot condemn anyone since doing so would be unloving.

 

Ignore the fear-mongers. At this point I would counsel you to study and pray diligently. Does your local church share your view? If not, tread lightly (but firmly). You don't want your view of God's sovereignty to resemble of sledge hammer. If your church does not share your theological view, you may find that continuing there is going to be difficult. If you do decide to eventually leave, do so with grace and in a manner that would glorify God.

If your church does share your theological view then take advantage of the the teaching. Grow in all aspects of your faith, not just in soteriology.

Be prepared for attacks against your faith. Non-Calvinist believers will be the source of most of your conflict. If you haven't seen in in here you certainly will. Those are the fear-mongers I told you to ignore. Learn before you debate.

 

One did...JohnB, to which you replied that his post was a strawman.

 

...and if they are in the minority, that tells you what, the majority of Christians believe a lie?

 

If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, what would that be? Is there some "other" faith that saves that calvinism teaches that I don't have?

The Bible tells us that the "world" will be against us, not fellow believers. This is the problem. You guys think you are in some exclusive Christian country club, while non calvinists are just hanging around content on playing putt-putt.

Now we're "fear mongers"?
I fear God, not calvinists!

 

Folks, this is false doctrine in a nut shell, and is not biblical teaching. If you are elect, you are saved, not "almost" or "in the future", you are.

 

Scott,

While omnibenevolence is indeed on of God's attributes, you are correct that he has others as well. However, you cannot have a contradictory attribute, or else God ceases to exist by conflicting definitions.

Again, I don't claim to be the answer man on this, but that is what I believe.

 

Folks, this is false doctrine in a nut shell, and is not biblical teaching. If you are elect, you are saved, not "almost" or "in the future", you are. </font>[/QUOTE]A more accurate statement would be, "There are some elect who are not yet regenerated." All of the elect will be regenerated at a yet unspecified point in time.

 

webdog said:

Not at t'all. The truth is that the unregenerate will not be the source of conflict for the Calvinist because they care not for the things of God. The source of ridicule and accusation will be from non-Calvinists. You're proof. You could have simply ignored my post. You didn't. You felt compelled to comment. Truth be told, there is no exclusive club. There are only Christians and non-christians.

webdog said:

You're a fear-monger? Did I ever indict you personally? It sounds as though you have a guilty conscience. If you're not a fear-monger then why respond to this post?

 

Is regenerated and unregenerate Scripture? Or are they words made of by calvinists?

 

I agree but I don't think the conflict is between God's attributes but rather how you have rationalized their application. If indeed God knows as I contend He does then there is a balance between His ordaining of life and foreknowledge that some will reject Him that does not conflict with any of His attributes.

This isn't a problem particular to calvinists of course. Anyone who agrees that God knows the future must deal with it... which is pretty much everyone here who has expressed an opinion. I am not aware of any open theists on the BB.

 

One did...JohnB, to which you replied that his post was a strawman. </font>[/QUOTE]Ummm, he didn't argue from Scripture. He only encouraged him to embrace Hyper-Calvinism. And when you think about it, that's pretty nasty. It would be like me telling someone who forsook Calvinism to just go-for-broke and embrace Roman Catholicism. That would be reckless to do such a thing.

[ May 03, 2006, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Andy T. ]

 

Hi Bob,

I’m not sure if you guys are havng a hard time posting, but I am on this end. The service is slow…or something.

Anyway..Bob we will address each verse if you want. Just as I address your verses on love. I'm sorry you think I'm hiding from one verse. I’m not running from anything that i know of. If I do not know, I’ll tell you.

Ok..well..one verse at a time. 1st..the one in john.

context 1st…John 1


5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Before Christ comes the world does not understand the “Light” (salvations plan). Why do I say this is the light. Later John is asked if he is the light a few times. He always says no. Then Christ comes...John 1st says..."LOOK...The Lamb of God." This is showing who it is. 2nd..."who takes away the sins of the world" this is showing the reason for his coming. The Light is both Chrsit and salvation from sins. One in the same.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.
7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.


God sent a witness to the world, to tell of this “light”. We too are told to “go tell” of the “light”. Again...salvation in Christ. Saved from our sins.

8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

In 8 we see that the Bible is saying John was not the Light. Before we saw where John said he was not the light. John could not save any one. John only told of the one that could save..”the light”. We too can not save. We go, for God has sent us, to share the light with the world, just as John.

9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world

Notice in this verse where both forms of the word is used. The true light (Christ) gives light (salvation) to every man (ALL mankind) was coming to the world. This is the same gospel we need to share.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Notice where we are in the order of events. Christ had now come (was in the world). Salvation was HERE. But even though it was Christ that Made man….(back to verse 1)…Man did not recognize Christ as God....or as the light. (salvation)

11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

1st…Christ came to His own…the Jews. You pointed this out before Bob. But the point is 2 fold. One..those that should have knewn him did not. In other words, this shows how blind mankind is. The jews were looking for Christ and know He was coming. God had worked with them and blesses them with the promise, the prophets, the Holy Word, the Law and many other great men. He came as their king. The Jews said…no way. They were looking for it..and still missed it. They would not have him as Christ, even though He the very God of heaven made them…(back to verse 1)

Also..this shows the heart of other nations. If the Jews missed it and they were looking for it, how blind are the other nations?

2nd part of this...and the real meaning as we will see later. The Jews being the choosen nation does not mean salvation. Salvation is Faith in God. Election happens before hand. Was the Jews elected for salvation? No. This small nation was elected for blessings of the Law, the profits, and the promise. Still they had to have faith just as Hebrews tells us,..faith in the promise. How about us? We are all dead in our sins. None would be saved, yet in love and mercy God elects some to remove the blindness..giving understanding by the Holy Spirit..so that they can know the state of sin they are in...and see God as their only hope of removing the guilt of their sins...and there by have faith to trust in Him for salvation. This can happen at one time, or in steps. The point of this passage is to show the Jews they are not born saved...but must have faith. The elect are not born saved. They too must have faith in God.

Yet..on the other hand. One day Christ will come to save the NATION as a whole. But that is another subject.

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

His own would not have him..Yet…..Christ had come to save. All that received Him..He (Christ) gave them right to become Children of God.

Ok that is the context...now to the meat.
******************************


13 (a) children born not of natural descent
Not because they were Jews……as seen above

13 (b) nor of human decision
Not because THEY choose God.

13 (c) or a husband's will,
Not because of a familys willingness


13 (d) but born of God.
…born of God…what does that mean?

ok..lets see what that means...

…how is it that we get born of God? why use this term here? Not born jews...but born of God. Did they choose to be Gods choosen nation? Did they choose to be born a into this nation? The next verse tell us Christ came…why He came…and what He brought to bring us this light.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Notice..the full story is given here.
1) The Word came…(as light/salvation)
2) For this brings God glory...(Grace is always giving God the glory)
3) And the light He brings comes from…GRACE and TRUTH.

Look down in verse 16..how do we receive His blessings? From the fullness of His grace.

16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.

Again…its from His grace..

If its not because who we are when we are born.. (natural descent)
If its not because we choose..( human decision)
If its not because of pull from our wife/huddy/son/dad…( husband's will)

God Blesses us with his Light/grace...WE ARE BORN INTO HIS FAMILY.

Now raise your hand..who choose to be born?

I'm teaching tonight...so i must run. But look at eph 1 now..and check out how we are blessed. The 1st chapter is a list of blessing we have in Christ...one on that list is election

I'll try to address the others later.


In Christ...James

 

Folks, this is false doctrine in a nut shell, and is not biblical teaching. If you are elect, you are saved, not "almost" or "in the future", you are. </font>[/QUOTE]That depends on how you view the elect. If you think someone isn't elect until they decide to elect themself, then you're right. But if the elect were elected before the foundation of the world, then I'm right. And there's even a 3rd option that is consistent with non-Calvinism - that God knows who is going to respond favorably to the Gospel and therefore they are elect by virtue of God's forknowledge. So I don't see how my statement was so controversial or "false".

 

God Bless you 3John2. Do not let our old hearts get in way of your faith. Trust God..follow Him. Most of what is said on this board are mans ideas. All you need is Gods Word and your faith

I say this as a rebuke to myself as well.

In Christ...James

 

3john2;
We wish you the best and we are not down on you. This discussion has been going on on almost every thread on this board. You can start a thread about a frog and it will turn into this same discussion. Don't let it bother you just listen and learn. I have at least learned a lot of new words.

 

Hey don't worry about it.

We probably tend to make mountains over lesser differences because many if not most of us will separate from those with whom we have major differences.

I have jousted some with Bro Bob but I'd lock arms with him and share the gospel with a poor lost soul any time. I doubt very serious that either one of us would discuss any of these finer points of doctrinal understanding to someone in danger of hell fire. We'd preach God's grace to repentant sinners.

There have been only a rare few who have taken the opposing stand that I couldn't say the same about. In those cases, I simply believed that they had such a high view of man that we couldn't walk together.

God bless you.

 

Thanks Scott J.;

Jauthor001;

When we started you said you could quote one Scripture and I would come back with another, which is true. You don't give verse and Scripture for your points so I can not respond for as you know I have to know the context. You entire post seems to be that Jesus was the Light of the world.

KJMatt.05
"14": Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

"15": Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.


John, chapter 3

16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"17": For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John, chapter 9
5": As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world


Matthew, chapter 5
"14": Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

You know I can give you Scripture for Scripture but why?

I have dealt with your belief all my life and do not accept it. All other beliefs you have are very close to mine but this one thing which is a biggy. You have not changed my mine one iota and I am sure I haven't yours. So God's blessing on you and yours,

BBob

 

Both, see Titus 3:5