OK, think this thru before you answer....Human Cloning.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Aug 12, 2002.

  1. LadyEagle

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    The link:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/10294p-9713c.html

    QUESTION: If human cloning is successful.....

    WILL THE CLONED CREATURE HAVE A SOUL? (The spirit part of a human that will spend eternity somewhere.)

    What do you believe about this, why, & Scriptures to support your position (if any available), please...... :( :eek: :( :eek:

    [ August 12, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: SheEagle911 ]
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    I'll only address the first part.

    You said, "WILL THE CLONED CREATURE HAVE A SOUL?

    I don't believe that "creature" is the correct terminology for a baby. For the novel, Frankenstein, maybe....but not a fetus or a baby.

    Yes, the baby will have a soul. Millions of "naturally" cloned people are walking around right now. That's what identical twins are. One is the original and one is the clone. They both have souls and are two entirely separate people. No monsters. No creatures.

    How do I feel about this couple undergoing cloning to have a baby? I'll have to chew on that a while.

    Peace-

    YSIC
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  3. Helen

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    There are some interesting bits in the release below, so I am going to leave it and insert some comments.

    An American couple trying to become the parents of the world's first cloned baby says, "God really wants us to do this."

    That line of 'personal revelation' was what Oral Roberts used to get money, what the Mormon prophet uses to get money, and is a line that has been used in more divorce cases than I can count.

    The couple, whose identity remains a secret, said that after trying for nine years to conceive the traditional way, they decided to become human guinea pigs and try the latest science has to offer.

    And when Sarah couldn't conceive, she offered her handmaid, Hagar, to Abraham, and there has been war ever since. God knows what He is doing...

    "I think that God really wants us to do this, that this is the next step," the would-be mom said in an interview scheduled to be broadcast tonight on CNN's "Connie Chung Tonight."

    "I think....." I think she's wrong.

    "I can't imagine any other reason why we haven't had a child, other than this is what we were meant to do."

    Her imagination, or lack of it, has nothing to do with God's will.

    [snip]

    Human cloning, fraught with religious and ethical problems, has been a taboo topic in this country. Last week, Zavos said he will soon take Bill and Kathy to an undisclosed foreign clinic to begin the cloning procedure.

    Cloning is fraught with a lot more than religious and ethical problems! The following is from March of this year (I bolded some very important things to think about) :

    I would like to think these people are not aware of this. I have a very difficult problem, theologically, with the concept that it is somehow God's will that dozens of human embryos be killed so that one can make it to an abnormal life as the child of a couple, only to be beset with a series of medical problems later on.

    In the interview with Chung, which airs at 8 p.m., Kathy said that although she supports the cutting-edge research into cloning, she might keep her baby secret for a long time if she successfully gives birth.

    If she cares anything at all about others who are considering this, she will not, but will let people know how things work out from the start.

    "I will tell the world that this child was conceived through cloning when it's safe for the child," Kathy said. "When the political climate and the emotional climate will be accepting."

    By then how many embryos will have been killed in other clone attempts? By then how many other cloned children will have been born to lives of medical and physical and perhaps mental misery?

    Bill told The Herald of Glasgow last month that he and his wife are "religious people and have searched deep into ourselves about this."

    Everyone is religious. Searching 'deep' into themselves is NOT the same as consulting God, by the way. New Agers consistently are spending much time searching deep into themselves....

    "If we could clone a child this would be our own child," Bill said. "We don't really regard this as cloning. To us this is an advanced [in vitro fertilization] process."

    Then they are intentionally lying to themselves.

    President Bush, who sought advice from Pope John Paul on the human cloning issue, wants a permanent ban on cloning biomedical research in the United States.

    God bless him.

    Despite the political firestorm it's caused, the science is winning over a number of American supporters.

    Just as long as you don't tell them the truth, they will follow along quite nicely, usually.

    The American Bar Association, whose 408,000 members have long advocated academic and scientific freedom, will vote this week on a policy supporting the research so long as it is conducted ethically and safely.

    Safely for whom? The dead children? The child born with a future of medical problems (so far) guaranteed? SAFE FOR WHOM??

    IN the meantime, yes, the cloned child will have a soul. God is in charge of that one, for which I am very grateful!
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    Human beings *are* souls.

    That will be the spirit and eventually the resurrection body.
     
  5. LadyEagle

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    The reason for the word "creature" was because some would argue it wasn't human. If I had said "human," I've no doubt someone here would have taken the opposite view. The word "creature" was taken as a neutral term as opposed to either "human" or "non-human."

    Also, in Christ, I am a new "creature," (creation), according to KJV.

    Helen has made the best argument so far to this article. Any others want to jump in?
     
  6. Justified

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    My opinion:

    God is the Creator! And is the only Creator! He breathes in the breath of life.

    Man has always wanted to achieve this level in his/her life. And now they have taken another step in that direction, with cloning.

    I would say that because God did not create this person, that it may have the appearence of a human being, doesn't automatically give it all of the attributes of a human being.

    So, does this put it on the same level as a dog or a cat, or any other animal for that matter?

    Remember, God created them also!

    God's creation, or man's invention? :confused: :eek:
     
  7. onevoice

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    An American couple trying to become the parents of the world's first cloned baby says, "God really wants us to do this"
    -------------------------------------------------

    Don't know if you watched the interview, but she said if the baby had any defects she would abort it and donate it's stem cells and then try again.

    Doesn't sound like something God would want us to do to me.

    ---------------------------------------------

    As far as the child having a soul .. yes I beleve it will. Although they can manipulate the genes of the child, GOD breathes life into it just like any other person.I don't think a persons genetics affect their soul, although, I am afraid this is about to open a big can of worms.
     
  8. Michael Estes

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    Whether or not clones have a soul or not is a question which will be answered only with time. What people are failing to see in this issue is that cloning itself is inherently wrong in the first place. Read the Bible and see what happens to man every time he attempts to equal himself with God. And that's all cloning is.
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Amen, Justified & Michael. Man Playing God.

    Hmmmm....reminds one of the Garden of Eden....hmmm. :(
     
  10. kellismartin

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    Helen, Hope you are teaching a Sunday school class for women or children somewhere. Impressive!

    You go girl!
    kel
     
  11. Helen

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    Thanks, Kel. Not now that I'm married to Barry, I can't. We travel too much as he lectures and such. I do give some lectures with him so does that count? (I am also spending several hours a day on preparing the Bible studies in the Bible study section below -- I am doing some massive research for some of them!) On the 29th I'll be leaving for Australia again for two weeks... Jet lag is becoming a way of life!

    In the meantime, about the baby -- many of the defects that are showing up in cloned animals are not showing up until some time after birth. They aren't going to know from amniocentesis.

    And their baby is disposable goods? They are most certainly NOT in communication with the God I know!
     
  12. tyndale1946

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    Scientist can clone people until they are blue in the face... No offense Helen!... but they will NEVER clone a sinless one!... In Adam ALL die!... Brother Glen :(
     
  13. TheOliveBranch

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    This truely is man's attempt at being God.

    I think that if God does allow a child to be born from cloning, it will only be if He allows this to happen, and the child will be born with a soul, a sinner needing the Savior.

    If this is the case, then how many abortions (and every child that isn't cloned perfectly will be an abortion) will it take to make one child? Human sacrifice at it's grossest point.

    I see a sadness that this world has never reached if this comes to pass. :(
     
  14. Graceforever

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  15. post-it

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    Give me a break Please…

    You all have such short memories, we went through these same arguments when the first “test tube” baby was “created”. Wait, don’t tell me…”but this is different”. Yea, right! If I had a nickel everytime I’ve heard “but this is different” I could start my own board.

    Man didn’t create any of the human parts in this process. If you want make an argument that Man is playing God, use the creation of an artificial heart, at least that is a man created body part.
    An egg created by God is used as the base, a strand of DNA, created by God is then placed into the egg. Where do you people see that man is creating anything in this scenario? This is just a “test tube twin” baby scenario.

    Man cannot, nor could he ever “create” a human individual. Clone, test tube, invetro fertilization, its all the same. Man is just manipulating existing body tissue period (aka medicine), not creating it.

    This argument against science never stops. Many centuries ago, I’m sure other religious fear mongers said, that the practice of medicine is acting as God, or replacing organs, was man trying to play God. JEZZZZZZZZZ :rolleyes:
     
  16. post-it

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    Just to provide a dose of history, here is a Catholic Headline on this topic circa 1978 via test tube babies.
    Of course, today we all accept that test tube babies have souls and are not "man created".

    How many of you remember these debates back in the 70's? History repeats itself.

    [ August 14, 2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  17. clipper

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    I actually was kind of surprised at myself for my initial reaction to this topic. As a physician in training, I'm generally very pro-scientific advancement, but my gut reaction to this is that it is a shame to have "designer babies" when there are so many children already in America who are unwanted. Right now I'm in the children's hospital and it just breaks my heart that a few of my patients don't have anyone who will take them home. I try to spend as much time as I can with them each day just reading and talking to them, but all the attention that we try to give to them pales in comparison to that which a family could offer.
     
  18. Justified

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    Post-it,

    It is true about the arguements of artificial organs and transplants. While they are for health and healing, that is a completely different ball park. :confused:

    I still don't agree with test tube babies and now dis agree with cloning. For this is a version of trying to play creator. :eek:
     
  19. post-it

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    And having a finger replaced after it is chopped off is also playing creator? At what century do you think we should roll medicine back to? The 1700's or 1300's. Blood letting a person due to evil spirits may be where you stop, but I'm fine with the knowledge and equipment God has granted cloning science to continue with on a path to healing the soul and mind of man.

    I have a real problem not allowing medicine to continue to advance. It has always been met with resistance from the church. Nothing new there except for thousands of people that have died in agony while the church figured it was God's will. Catholic and now Protestant. Leach anyone?
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    post-it, I think you are making a ridiculous jump with that recent post. However, you did give me an idea for a new thread re: organ donation. So thanks for the idea, even though I disagree with your WILD leap on this topic! :eek: :D ;)
     

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