Okay you bible exegeters...

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
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    ....exegete these two verses and tell me what these verses explain.

    He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just,
    Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.
    [Prov. 17:15]


    to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[Rom. 3:26]

    Both of these are from the NKJV.
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    The Proverbs verse states the sin of justifying the unjust and convicting the just.

    Romans 3:26

    These verses are a wonderful illustration of the complexity of our salvation, and what God had to do to justify the ungodly.

    To demonstrate, or for the shewing (πρὸς τὴν ἔνδειξι). This phrase repeats the point of εἰς ἔνδειξι in the previous verse (25) using πρὸς (toward or unto) instead of εἰς (into).

    At the present time or at this present season (ἐν τῷ νῦν). “In the now crisis,” in contrast with “previously” of verse 25.

    That he might himself (αὐτὸν) be (εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν). Purpose with εἰς τὸ and the infinitive εἶναι in the accusative of general reference.

    Just and the justifier of (δίκαιον καὶ δικαιοῦντα). This is the key phrase which establishes the connection between the justice of God and justification of men through faith. Paul here explains the problem of God in the most profound terms. To pronounce the unrighteous righteous is unjust by itself (Proverbs 17:15 and Romans 4:5). But God’s mercy would not allow Him to leave man to his horrible fate. God’s justice demanded punishment for sin. So the only possible way to save some was the propitiatory offering of Christ (God Himself in human form) and the call for and gift of faith on man’s part.

    Is that what you were looking for? :)
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

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    DING DING DING DING!!! Bro. Paul Washer preached a sermon about this. He laid it out in pretty much the same manner as you did. If God forgives the unjust who were justly condemned, then He has violated His own character, violated one of His own attributes. If He let the unjust go free, He is no better than those ascribed to Pro. 17:15. Ergo, the need to truly show that true faith comes from God and not man's innateness. Christ bore the full wrath of God by taking their sins upon Himself, drank the cup of the wrath of God, thereby satisfying God's justice, thereby being able to justify the ungodly.

    If people do not grasp what propitiation truly entails, that faith is not innate in man, is truly a God-given gift, then they do not understand the gospel...the gospel which saves sinners from their sins.
     
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  4. SovereignGrace

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    I would love to give you post TCassidy 10,000,000,000,000 likes. :D
     
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  5. tyndale1946

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    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God... btw I agree with everything TC said in his post except this (the call for and gift of faith on man’s part). What is according to The Sovereign Grace of God is man's part?... Brother Glen
     
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  6. SovereignGrace

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    Bro. Glen, I think TCassidy's part stating on man's part is spot on, in my opinion. Remember faith given, faith received, became ours and we exercised faith and repentance after regeneration. So we do exercise faith and repentance after His quickening us.
     
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  7. tyndale1946

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    After regeneration... After quickening... We exercise Faith!... Now that I understand and if we don't exercise Faith no blessings... Thanks for clearing that up!... Brother Glen
     
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  8. TCassidy

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    After regeneration the redeemed man lives by faith. Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
     
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  9. SovereignGrace

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    Glad to be of assistance, Monsieur. People who disagree with our point of view accuse us of not believing 'your faith has saved you,' or 'your faith has healed you.' It is our faith that we exercise(d) when we were saved. However, it takes the quickening, regenerative power of God's Spirit, that brought us to life. In that quickening, faith and repentance are exercised. So, yes, God gives, grants us, faith and repentance. We exercise it in Him saving us.
     
  10. SovereignGrace

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    DING DING DING DING DING!!!
     
  11. kyredneck

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    I fail to see the connection between the two or why you chose to post this in C/A. :)



    Synonymous with:

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20

    Ye who turn justice to wormwood, and cast down righteousness to the earth, Amos 5:7

    This is what corrupt men do.

    This is what the our God does.

    Unrighteous man in contrast to the righteous God.

    Apples and oranges.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Oct 10, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
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  12. SovereignGrace

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    Going to have to disagree with you, kyredneck. If God forgives sinners without His wrath being appeased, then He has violated His word, and character concerning justice and wrath.

    Bro. Paul Washer used this scenario that proves what I am trying to convey. You come home to a man who has murdered his family. You catch him, call the police, and they take him to jail. Months later a judge says he is a loving judge and forgives him and sets the guilty free. No one paid the penalty of his crime...sin, and he was set free. So freedom of sin came without anyone paying the penalty.

    Look at Christ as He interceced on our behalf. He took our sins upon Himself, drank the cup of God's wrath, and paid for it by giving His life 'a ransom for many.' If Christ had not died in our stead, God could not forgive sinners of their sins, and not violate His word and character of justice.
     
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  13. kyredneck

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    How are those two passages even remotely related? Apples and oranges.
     
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  14. SovereignGrace

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    He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just,
    Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.
    [Pro. 17:15]

    to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus[Rom. 3:26]

    Look @ Proverbs 17:15. If any man justifies the wicked, they are an abomination in His sight. If God justifies a sinner without the effacacious works of Christ, then He has violated His word, His attribute of being just. Ergo, Christ coming as a man, the God-man, who 'will save His people from their sins.' This debunks the innateness of faith.

    So by stacking these two verse together, it gives a clearer glimpse at how God justifies sinners.
     
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  15. kyredneck

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    No. If you 'stacked' passages like:

    And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

    ...or:

    ....the righteous shall live by his faith. Hab 2:4

    ...you would be giving a clearer glimpse at how God justifies sinners.

    Prov 17:15 is not even in reference to God, it's in reference to wicked men who 'call evil good and good evil'.
     
    #15 kyredneck, Oct 10, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
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  16. SovereignGrace

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  17. kyredneck

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    You gave me a big ol' 'disagree'. You disagree that "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the righteous" is NOT in reference to God?
     
  18. kyredneck

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    The two passages in the OP are apples and oranges.
     
  19. kyredneck

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    The two passages in the OP are never 'connected' in the NT. The two I provided are.

    You all carry on imagining 'so much the better' a connection. I can't imagine it as an 'exegeter'.
     
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  20. kyredneck

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    You gave me a 'disagree' for post #11. Are you also disagreeing that 'He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just' is NOT in reference to God?

    Check the scripture references in your Bible for Prov 17:15. That's what I did.

     

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