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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2015.

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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Kyredneck, let me try to clarify what I am trying(poorly it appears) to express in the OP. Everybody on here agrees with justification, salvation by faith. Now, if faith is innate in mankind, then sinners justified themselves, and not God. However, if faith is God-given(and it is), then it truly is God who justifies the nations(heathen in KJB).

    To carry on with this thought, one does not possess justification without sanctification and also salvation. So if God truly justifies the sinner by faith, you can hang your hat that they're saved. Because being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.[Phpp. 1:6] Now, God states through Solomon that to justify(set free) the wicked is an abomination in God's sight. Ergo, here comes the God-man Christ Jesus, who God pours out His wrath upon His own Son. Why? He took our sins, therefore, He injested the wrath of God by partaking of that cup. If God's justice had not been satisfied(true propitiation at work), then we have no hope. Why? Justifying the wicked is an abomination to God. Jesus, by taking our But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.[Isa. 53:5] Now, by Jesus satisfying God's justice and appeasing His wrath, He justifies the wicked.
     
    #21 SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2015
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am disagreeing with your assertion that the two verses in question were "Apples and oranges."

    Proverbs establishes the principle that "He that justifieth the wicked . . . [is] abomination to the LORD."

    And Romans tells us that God justifies the ungodly (wicked) and, as God considers that "abomination" so He could not simply say, "Oh, never mind." He had to come in the Person of Christ to pay the penalty. God is a Righteous God and therefore cannot violate His own law.
     
    #22 TCassidy, Oct 10, 2015
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I chose to put this topic here because it is soteriological in its essence. As you can see as it has unfolded, it needed to be put here.
     
    #23 SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2015
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ???

    There's zilch Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate that has unfolded here. My point is simply that you've chosen two unrelated passages to form an exegisis. But it seems you've got company to share your imaginations with, so have at it brother. :)
     
    #24 kyredneck, Oct 10, 2015
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It IS apples and oranges, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, right?

    (hmmm, no button for 'agree to disagree')
     
    #25 kyredneck, Oct 10, 2015
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Brother, others have expressed the same thoughts I have. As Solomon expressed under inspiration of the Spirit, whoever justifies the ungodly(wicked) would perform an abominal act. We know that God will never violate His word or character. I used these two verses to show that by God justifying the ungodly(wicked) His justice and wrath would have be satisified. This is why propiation is so important to understand. I guess we'll just have to disagree, I guess.
     
    #26 SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2015
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Go to around the 13:00 mark and start listening if you do not have time to listen to this whole blessed sermon, please.
     
    #27 SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2015
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How does the rest of the passage, "he who condemns the just" fit into this 'exegesis'. It doesn't.

    But it does jibe perfectly with 'those who call evil good and good evil', just as my Nelson ASV reference Bible directed me to.

    Sure, you all are preaching to the choir here with truth about what God had to do in order to justify the ungodly and yet remain righteous doing so, but Prov 17:15 is on another tangent than this.
     
    #28 kyredneck, Oct 10, 2015
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Bro., if you have time sometime today, listen to that sermon. He's a blessed preacher.
     
    #29 SovereignGrace, Oct 11, 2015
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No doubt he is SG, and don't take it wrong, but I've other things to do right now (like go to bed). Maybe later.
     
    #30 kyredneck, Oct 11, 2015
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  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    As I previously stated, go to ~13:00 and listen to him a few minutes. He states it more succinctly than I could ever hope to do, Monsieur.
     
    #31 SovereignGrace, Oct 11, 2015
  12. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    This thread is good. I think that connection that you (and Paul Washer) make between Proverbs and Romans is amazing.
     
    #32 robustheologian, Oct 13, 2015
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oh trust me, I did not link these two verses together. I got this from listening to that sermon I inserted in post # 30. I am but a simpleton trying to learn all I can about the gospel. Bro. Paul and I and on completely different rungs on the bible knowledge ladder. But I do try hard. :) :D
     
    #33 SovereignGrace, Oct 13, 2015
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    We are all on different rungs. What is important is which direction we are going. Climbing into greater heights of knowledge or descending into greater darkness of heresy and apostasy. :)
     
    #34 TCassidy, Oct 13, 2015
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  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I went and listen to Paul Washer... As I was listening I discovered that I had been listening to that doctrine and preaching for 40 years... SG do you find this new?... This is Grace!... Not what we will or do for God but what he has done for us through his Son Jesus The Christ and his cross!... That's my doctrine and belief!... Brother Glen
     
    #35 tyndale1946, Oct 13, 2015
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  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Growing up among the free will believers, I never got a whole lot of in depth teaching/preaching. Not saying this to be mean, but it is the truth nonetheless.
     
    #36 SovereignGrace, Oct 13, 2015
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