OKC BOMBING DESCREPANCIES

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Phillip, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    I did say that I have some issues with the OKC bombing that I cannot explain.

    I am honestly afraid to post this based on being considered a Conspiracy theory quack myself, but at that risk I will give you the information as I saw and heard it.

    I was in Tulsa on the day of the bombing and we listened to live coverage on the local-news talk station owned by Clear-Channel who was feeding live coverage from their sister news-talk station in OKC (KTOK).

    After the explosion occurred an on the spot reporter interviewed Oklahoma City's bomb squad leader. Everybody in our office heard this report. He said that he had disarmed a bomb inside the building (after the big one) and that two other teams of men who worked for him disarmed two more. This occurred when the building was cleared again after bomb squad supposedly found another smaller bomb in the building.

    Janet Reno made a speech later that morning on TV and she said that the rumors of other bombs found in the building were untrue and they were "practice bombs" kept in the offices of the ATF in the Murrah Building. So, it was just a big scare. The news stories of the morning were never repeated and nothing more was said about finding other bombs except what Janet Reno said.

    My daughter and I watched much of the rescue effort the next day. I took her to the city since I knew this would be history in the making and that it would most likely be an important thing to remember and see in person. Believe me, it was difficult to describe the damage or to show it on television. Remember how the damage appeared in the front of the building. A BIG mess.

    Then, I watched much of the state trial of Terry Nichols. Primarily because I live in the same town the trial occurred and it was history in the making. The same bomb squad leader testified and I sat less than twenty feet from him when he testified. He sat right there in the witness chair and never mentioned that he disarmed a bomb as he did on the radio.

    He testified that he didn't even know it was destroyed the entire front of the building until he went around the building after helping people out at the back of the building. He said that he saw something that looked suspicious in one of the exposed offices and had the fire-department put up a tall ladder (at least to the fifth floor)--he retrived a box that was marked as a "live" TOW missile container. He brought it down to the street and opened it and it had a practice missile in there.

    My brother was a Federal Special Agent for the Treasury department who knew the ATF agent very well who was killed in the Murrah bulding. I asked my brother if they would have had practice fake explosives in the ATF office. He started laughing and said, "No way." These were operational offices in a federal building, not training locations were simulated explosives would be kept.

    Here are my questions and problems:

    Why would the bomb-squad leader say that he disarmed one bomb and his men had disarmed two others in a live interview?

    Why would Janet Reno indicate there were fake explosives in the ATF office within hours of the explosion?

    Why would the agent testify on the witness stand that he did not find any live bombs after saying so on the radio?

    Why would there be a box containing a fake TOW missile, but the box was not marked as "inert"?

    What would ATF agents be doing with an anti-tank missile (fake or not) in a downtown office in Oklahoma City.

    Finally, there are some issues concerning John Doe number two and the fact that seven witnesses claim they saw a middle-eastern looking man who looked just like John Doe number 2 exit the truck with McVeigh and leave with him--wearing a jogging suit?

    How did the government get such a perfect drawing of Timothy McVeigh based on one person's description and the match between the pix and McVeigh were incredible--and coming up with this picture within hours of the bombing?

    Okay, I have presented what I have heard and seen and the questions that I have concerning the bombing.

    Is this a conspiracy theory---no, there are just some issues that don't tie together.

    I can just imagine the stories that can be made up from these descrepancies, but the bottom line is that it is possible the government agents had suspicions something was going to happen and they may have even known McVeigh might have been planning something (because they had his likeness down so well)--but, he was just too many steps ahead of them. Is this likely? I don't know and speculating does no good and much of this may have just been the result of confusion (especially the bomb squad leader's testimony) during the terrible morning of the disaster.


    Actually, in reality I think it is more likely that the government was hot on the trail of McVeigh, but he was just too far ahead of them. True or not the government would have done everything they could to prevent the bombing from occuring.

    Then again, all this testimony may have just been confused by the bomb squad crew who were as shook up as the rest of us by such a powerful disaster.

    We have to remember that every time something this enormous and disasterous occurs, confusion rules. People are confused, they say things they don't mean. They may actually believe they saw something when they didn't. How many of you actually believe that you would remember what a stranger looked like who got out of a truck and then an explosion wipes out a huge building and everything in two or three blocks.

    Were inside bombs found? In reality, I doubt it. They weren't needed and 7000 pounds of ANFO, parked where it was would have certainly cratered the side of the building and pancaked the floors just like it did.

    About the windows on the far side of the building? You would just have to see the site after it occurred to see how much debris there was blocking those windows from any shock wave.

    ANFO is a relatively slow shock wave compared to military explosives. A 1000 pound military bomb in that truck would have been more likely to have blown the building to the ground due to the much higher air-shock that would have formed. ANFO is good for cratering rocks in a quarry, but it wouldn't be the best choice to bring the building down. This is probably the only thing that prevented the building from collapsing.

    You have to realize that the truck was practically touching the building because there was a cut-out in the sidewalk for a delivery truck to come right to the building. This is the major reason McVeigh picked the OKC building over several others he considered--including the actual federal building in OKC or the federal building in Little-Rock.

    There you go, conspiracy hounds---if you want to take off on a tangent, this one has more evidence of some oddities than the WTC or Pentagon or even Elvis being alive. :D
     
  2. LadyEagle

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  3. Phillip

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    Jana Davis is full of B-O-L-O-G-N-A.

    Why do you think KFOR got rid of her?

    Why do you think the guy she was accusing sued her in civil court?

    Besides that, she can't write either. :rolleyes:

    I put her in the same class as Gail Riplinger........ [​IMG]
     
  4. LadyEagle

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    Well, Phillip, other than your opinion that Jana Davis is full of bologna, do you have any facts to back that up?
     
  5. Phillip

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    Well, if you wish to hash through all of her wild stories, we can do that and I can give you facts that you can look into.

    I did give you a few questions:

    Why would KFOR get RID of Jana and now she is on her own with her husband trying to be her business manager since they were both unemployed?

    and, again, why would a terrorist bring a civil suit in Oklahoma City court against somebody that accused them of being involved in blowing up the building?

    If you wish to hash her book through, we can, but be aware that she has no concept of what went on that day and everything she wrote is based on speculation.

    She got herself sued for blaming a local Iraqi businessman of being involved and I don't see him going to jail. Why would the government ignore obvious facts if he were involved? He was checked out and didn't have anything to do with it--not ONLY by the government, but by the TV station and a private investigator who came to the conclusion there was absolutely no outside aid beyond Nichols and the duffus with long-hair (can't remember his name even though I watched him in court and watched him mouth: "I'm sorry." to Nichols when he turned his back on the jury.") Oh, yeah, Fortier, or something like that.

    Read the book about the interview with McVeigh and he will tell you exactly what happened and everything he said matched except one thing--he claimed he did it with 4000 pounds of ANFO and the government (and I) claim he did it with 7000 pounds of ANFO. (He was quite an egotistical person trying to make everybody think he was good at building bombs, even though he couldn't get most of his small ANFO test bombs to detonate.)

    Answer those questions and then give me a statement of Jana's, any statement, that you want to discuss and I will clarify what is and what isn't the truth.
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    Well, I'm not surprised about an Iraqi businessman going to jail. Not at all. Or how Jana Davis has been maligned.

    http://www.apfn.org/apfn/hoffman5.htm
     
  7. PastorSBC1303

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    LE, I am curious why you don't answer any of the questions that Phillip has asked?
     
  8. LadyEagle

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    You're allowed to be curious. But I'm waiting for Phillip to give us his answers to his own questions because he made the allegations that Jana Davis is full of bologna. Surely there is proof somewhere that she is. [​IMG]

    There seem to be several reliable sources who agree with her about the Middle East/Iraqi connection as pointed out on my previous link. Of course, they must be full of bologna, too. [​IMG]
     
  9. Phillip

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    I enjoy debating with you, LadyEagle. At least you don't back off the way some do when they face a little resistance. Hang in there, we may figure all of this out yet, and find some wild stories.

    Anyway, I don't know of any Iraqi businessman going to jail, if it is in the article you point out, please show me.

    I do have a lot of problems with Jones. He's well known in the state and was trying to make a name for himself by defending McVeigh.

    Do you remember that McVeigh fired him? Do you remember why? The reason was that McVeigh was tired of all the conspiracy stuff Jones was trying to come up with and he felt it would damage his defense more than help it. If I were McVeigh, I think I would have let the Iraqis take the credit.

    I have no doubt that certain people were proud of the day McVeigh killed 162 innocent people, but I'm certainly not one of them. I personally think McVeigh should have been simply turned over to the victims family's to do with as they pleased, but then again, I believe in our legal system.

    Yes, I think you are right in that: I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of terrorists who live in the US laughed that day, and the day the towers fell, but I think McVeigh's plan to strike out at the government because of Waco backfired and he wasn't the hero he thought he would be.

    I will say that I don't believe that anyone who saw McVeigh leave the truck remained alive long enough to tell the story and that the second Army guy who tried renting a Ryder truck after McVeigh walked out also looked just like JD #2. This is where the drawing of McVeigh came from too, so obviouly, whoever rented the trucks out remembered their faces and worked well with the artist who drew them to come up with such good composites.
     
  10. PastorSBC1303

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    Oh ok, wouldn't it be easier to just say you don't know the answers?
     
  11. Phillip

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    I told you that I am not going to read through Jana's book again to remind myself of all the bologna it contained, so if you will kindly tell me a claim of hers, I will discuss it.

    You are right, I would say that over 90% of the websites we visit are full of bologna....especially the conspiracy sites. For proof, just type UFO and see how much BOLOGNA you DO get.
     
  12. Phillip

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    Okay, I'll ansswer my own quetions. Why did they find a TOW missile box in an ATF agents room? Probably the same reason that we all have toys and junk that we collect to show off.

    Why did some people testify they saw a middle eastern man? Because if you will remember when the bomb went off, an Iranian was arrested leaving OKC with tools to give to his brother in Iran--he just happened to work for Seagate, the big hard-drive manufacturer located in OKC. What was everybody thinking immediately AFTER the bombing. Oh, it HAD to be terrorists. An American soldier, gone bad, certainly wouldn't destroy a government building.

    Why did the bomb squad guy testify that he disarmed a bomb? I don't know for facts but everybody was so shook up that morning there were no facts, but tons of rumours running around. He may have thought that the Tow Missile was live and simply called it a bomb (after all they do contain a bomb)--it was NOT marked as INERT. This is the reason keeping INERT weapons around can be VERY dangerous. They can be confused and real weapons can be mixed in...especially when the boxes are not marked correctly.

    I looked carefully at the building, up close and in person, not on tv. I do NOT believe that any damage was caused by anything other than the ANFO contained in the Ryder truck. The damage matched the pattern exactly and if I am not mistaken, the same guy (so called bomb-expert that I have never heard of until then) from New Mexico tried to make this into a conspiracy theory too.

    ANFO makes a GREAT cratering charge and that's exactly what it did. Good thing he didn't get his hand on a military bomb or a much smaller size would have allowed for a smaller vehicle and probably disentegrated the integrity of the entire building.

    There were no signs of internal explosives.

    and, back to the TOW missile, where did it come from? An inert TOW would not be surprising to be in the possession of an ATF agent who is head of an entire area and possibly trains his agent in what to look for---although, he was lax in keeping it in his office and even more lax by having it in a box that was not marked appropriately. The man is dead, so I am not going to say he has done anything that I haven't done in the past. Although, I have learned my lesson the hard way about the proper marking of energetics.

    Is that good enough for you to provide some answers LE?
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    Yes, thank you.
     
  14. PastorSBC1303

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    LE, ok now that Phillip has answered your questions, are you going to answer his?
     
  15. LadyEagle

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    I don't know. I enjoy debating with you, too, Phillip, because you aren't mean spirited. [​IMG]
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    So, you have written off Jana Davis as bologna, but what about David Schippers? Is he an untrustworthy source, as well?
     
  17. El_Guero

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    Phillip

    1. confusion is the simplest answer.

    2. it was a practice device (When I was in the Army, I kept training equipment in my office off and on for years). Training equipment being kept in an office is not uncommon.

    3. live munitions - this is unlikely. even inert munitions are normally handled differently than training equipment. but, it is always possible.

    a teacher blew off part of his hand last month, when he tried to crush a bug with his 'inert' 40mm shell. but, without more info - i would go with number one (confusion).
     
  18. LadyEagle

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  19. LadyEagle

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  20. Phillip

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    Yes, I know, it was very sad. We're the military's center for explosives safety, so all this comes through our office. We also provide the training for all QASIS and ammunition managers. This causes an uneasy mix of demonstration ammo and live ammo which must be categorized, marked and kept seperate.

    No secret or OPsec broken there. Lucky only the propellant went off, if the Granade would have armed it would have been much worse.

    40 MM launched granades can be a major safety hazard, if not used correctly. They fire them, they arm themselves (you probably know how) and they hit the sand where the shock doesn't set them off.

    They lie in wait for someone to pick them up. Sad indeed. I hope to see this remedied soon. As I said, at least in the above case it was only the propellant.

    Bottom line, all war zones may be full of unexploded ordinance and often soldiers are just dying to take a souvenir home. This is the primary reason the government has buckled down on carrying home items from war. In WWII it was different. Many soldiers, including my father returned with Japanese guns, swords or other items from Europe.

    [ April 09, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     

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