Old Baptist Quote #2 - William Gadsby

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by rlvaughn, Nov 2, 2001.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    "What do you mean by praying that God will have mercy upon all men, and save them with an everlasting salvation, and then tell the congregation that God has done all He can to save them, and the matter rests with them, whether they will be saved or not?...if God has done all He can, why pray for Him do more? And if He has not done all He can, why tell the people He has?" - William Gadsby

    Initially, I am only giving the name of the person quoted, because I think this interesting quote may elicit varied responses, if one is not predisposed to think of it from a certain way. Later I will give some biographical information.

    [ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    Either GOD IS OUR ALL IN ALL or god is nothing at all... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  3. Clint Kritzer

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    The first scriptural defense that comes to mind to the questions posed in your quote, sir, is from the book of Jonah, chapter 3, verse 10: "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Then in the end of the Book, God spares Nineveh, a city of 600,000 people because they heeded his words, repented, feared and honored Him.
    I'll refrain from my usual sermoning and leave it at that.

    May God bless you

    - Clint
     
  4. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    I will refrain from comment, because I know who Gadsby was.

    Jeff.
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    I'll just wait for Brother Roberts comment!... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  6. rlvaughn

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    I think Elder Gadsby's quote is an interesting one, that might be taken in different ways by different people. But one of the main things I get is that we should be cautious in our speech. Often we teach and preach things that are mutually exclusive. If God has already done everything He can or has to do, why would anyone ever pray for Him to do something else. Are we praying for Him to do something that we've just said He has already done?

    Perhaps the way I decipher this in my mind is: God, in Christ, has reconciled the world unto Himself; and through His shed blood Christ has made atonement for all who will be saved, so that He might truly say on the cross "It is finished", and then ascend and SIT DOWN at the right hand of the Father (indicating He is finished). But I also understand that in time the Holy Spirit must quicken the dead alien sinner. I certainly don't have all of this figured out, and I would like to know more; but I am not too ashamed to know that a sovereign eternal God could perform something that is beyond the comphrension of my little pea-brain. Let us look on in awe even when we don't understand. But I do feel that I believe this as much as I can believe anything, even if I don't understand it all - "Salvation is of the Lord!"
     
  7. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Now, Bro. Robert, you have done went and done it. [​IMG] You have sorta let the cat out of the bag.

    In the for what its worth category, Strict Baptists in England use no title at all, and his fellows would have addressed him as Mr. Gadsby.

    Mr. Gadsby was a English minister of the Strict and Particular variety -- The English equivalent of Primitive Baptist. He flourished in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. He also wrote about 160 hymns, and compiled a hymnal, the Gadsby hymnal, which is still in use by Strict and Particular Baptists in England. And for those that dont know Strict and Particular Baptists would be largely classified as Calvinists.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"What do you mean by praying that God will have mercy upon all men, and save them with an everlasting salvation, and then tell the congregation that God has done all He can to save them, and the matter rests with them, whether they will be saved or not?...if God has done all He can, why pray for Him do more? And if He has not done all He can, why tell the people He has?" - William Gadsby<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    To me, his statement above is rhetorical, showing absurdities of common theology, then and now.

    The statement gets into deep theological waters. The nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of prayer. There seems to be a common perception by deed if not word, that God doesn't know what His creatures are doing, and we must tell Him our needs. IMO, Prayer isn't for God's benefit, it is for ours. It is our way of confession, it is our way of communication with the Creator.

    Whether or not God has done all He can, I can not answer, for I am not God. However, He has done all that is required, by sending His son to take our rightful place in death.
    He provided the sacrifice because of our total depravity.
    He called us to be His children without any obligation. (Unconditional Election)
    I for one don't believe that Jesus shed any drop of His blood in vain. (Limited atonement)
    I don't believe it is possible for any to resist the call -- we are compelled to come to the marriage. (Irresistible Grace) It seems to me one would have to be daft to want to not go. Jesus also said, "My sheep hear my voice, etc."
    And having paid the price, and done all the work, I can not fathom that He would not be able to complete the work. Jesus said, Of all that the Father hath given me, I shall lose nothing but raise them up in the last day. (Final preserverance of the saints).

    There is another thread going on now about salvation, but to what I read, study and believe, God made the law, God made a way for His children, and God will get us there without any work on our part. For we are dead without Him. The dead are incapable of doing anything whatsoever including forming a rational set of beliefs. When he makes us alive, he gives elemental faith, it is a gift of God, just as life is, water, air, food, rainment, shelter and all other good things in life.

    So, with that I will close my sermon for today. [​IMG]


    Jeff
     
  8. rlvaughn

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    Thought I should go ahead and let the cat out of the bag, since no one was commenting anyway. Funny you should mention the title thing - I think the Strict Baptists are right on this one. For several years I advocated using, for example, Jeff Weaver (elder) instead of Elder Jeff Weaver. That is because, in my opinion, elder in not a title, but rather an office. It never caught on with anyone beyond myself, so I just went back to the common usage. It's not that big a deal, but I do believe that technically using elder (or bishop, etc) as a title is not Biblically correct.

    Rhetorical - there's that word I couldn't think of when I made the last post - yes, I think that's exactly what it is, rhetorical. I like Gadsby's statement and agree with him. But if you were reading between the lines, Bro. Jeff, you may have caught on to one place where I part company with the Primitive Baptists and some other "Calvinistic" Baptists. I don't draw a hard and fast line for fellowship based on the understanding of predestination, limited atonement, unconditional election, etc. Perhaps, kind of like the 1800's union of Regulars and Separates, I think that "preaching that Christ tasted death for every man (or not every man) should be no bar to communion." What I look for is not an exact understanding of how God did it, but a practical application of the fact that salvation is of the Lord - so that the gospel is simply preached, and whatever result happens is strictly left up to God. Of course, I do understand that one's theology will have some effect on how that one handles this in a practical way. If someone thinks they are able to do something to help God along with salvation, there may be no end of the wild schemes they will come up with to do it. BTW, my plan (looking at the practice as opposed to the doctrine), as you might expect, is generally not received well by either the strict "Calvinist" or the moderate "Calvinist". But, some other things being equal, I could (not do) fellowship with Regulars, Absoluters, Landmarkers, Sovereign Gracers, etc. The real life situation is that if one of these finds out you're fellowshipping with the other, you'll wind up out of fellowship with all of them! Finally, some of William Gadsby's writings can be found on-line. I will try to put up some links.
     
  9. Jeff Weaver

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    Well, you have find another one to agree with you on the titles thing. I don't care for them. I once created a big stink on this issue -- I met a fellow, a Baptist preacher, and did use his title, and he let me have it.

    As for the fellowship thing. I take a bit of a different prespective on it beacuse of my heritage. It causes fewer problems only formally fellowshiping those of like faith and order. Course I informally fellowship a lot of folks. If I didn't couldn't be here. [​IMG] As you know we Primitive Baptists get trashed pretty good for our faith, so it is difficult to take for a lot of our folks, including me. And usually it is other Baptists that do the trashing of us, at least that has been my personal experience. As I have stated other places, I think most Primitive Baptists would be comfortable with being Old School Presbyterians over most all other types of Baptists.

    I'll look forward to the Gadsby links.

    Jeff
     
  10. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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  11. rlvaughn

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    Here is An Everlasting Task for Arminians, probably one of the most well known pieces of Gadsby and also The Gospel Rule Defended.

    I looked back to find the source of the original quote, and have not been able to find it. I have had it for a number of years, and failed to note the source when I shorthanded it. I think I probably found it in an article in The Remnant, a periodical edited by Eld. J. F. Poole.

    Here's a short bio from the Landmark IBC website:
    "William Gadsby (1773-1844) for 38 years was pastor of the Strict Baptist church at Manchester, England and a well-known preacher in his day. He complied a selection of hymns including many of his own composition and published them in a hymnbook which is still used by congregations today."

    On titles - what has been your practice? I have tended to compromise with the prevailing use of them, if I feel it is a Biblical word such as elder, bishop, etc., but do not use "reverend" at all, nor "doctor" in a religious context. But I really don't imagine that the Lord intended us to go around with a title tacked in front of our name. I see no Biblical basis for doing so. It also has the tendency to "exalt" some preachers over others.

    Many of the times I have heard Primitive Baptists get "trashed", the people had no idea of what they spoke. You wouldn't believe (or perhaps you would) how many times I have heard people say the Primitive Baptists teach "falling from grace".

    A little farther on the fellowship; a question - just your opinion, not how you or your church actually deal with it - do you think that the issue of absolute predestination is so important that the PB family should be divided over it? You may not answer it as I expect, but if you do...that's what I referring to when I say I COULD fellowship with several of these different Baptists; that they are divided over little issues that, though not unimportant, should not be a source of division between brethren. Lest anyone should think I'm getting a little too liberal now, let me remind you, there are at least six churches with which I fellowship :eek: . (But I have three of them fooled :D )

    [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  12. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On titles - what has been your practice? I have tended to compromise with the prevailing use of them, if I feel it is a Biblical word such as elder, bishop, etc., but do not use "reverend" at all, nor "doctor" in a religious context. But I really don't imagine that the Lord intended us to go around with a title tacked in front of our name. I see no Biblical basis for doing so. It also has the tendency to "exalt" some preachers over others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I go along to get along, it isn't really all that important in the grand scheme of things. I call other Primitive Baptists or those that ought to be ;) Brother or Sister, but there is no warrant to do that either. Brother or Sister is a relationship, but most of our folks use it as a title.

    As for Rev. or Dr. this or that, I risk offending some here, but it is a horrendous practice. Reverend is a title reserved to God - period end of discussion on that one. Doctor is a bit less distressing, but seems to be primarily elevate one above another. Course it has become a cultural.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Many of the times I have heard Primitive Baptists get "trashed", the people had no idea of what they spoke. You wouldn't believe (or perhaps you would) how many times I have heard people say the Primitive Baptists teach "falling from grace".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yep, heard that one too, but no too often. Most often we are accused of double predestination, or condeming infants to hades. Neither of which is true.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A little farther on the fellowship; a question - just your opinion, not how you or your church actually deal with it.... etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Personnally, no I dont think it should be a bar to fellowship. I am actually old enough to have known the leaders of the two sides in that division, both out here in my part of the world. It was pretty much jealousy that got out of hand, and folks were forced to chose sides. It was never an issue one way or the other here in the east until the late 1920s. I have friends on both sides of the issue, and can go between them without too much rancor, but I keep my seat when visiting those on the absolute side of things because it would cause a controversy. That all said, lots of the church groups here are going back together, and of course there is some dissention over that coming mainly out of Texas. Patti and I attend Old Carroll PBC in Mt. Airy, MD, which meets on the 2nd and 4th Sundays. On the 1st and 3rd we all gang up and go over to Black Rock Particular Baptist (Black Rock Address fame). Black Rock was identified as an absoluter congregation until the early 1990s. The Regular PB Church at Columbia, MD actually has absoluters and non-absoluters in the same church.

    I do apologize for misunderstanding your original comment.

    Jeff

    [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]
     
  13. rlvaughn

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    No apology necessary. Just wanted to maybe show from where I was coming. Ultimately, it seems that you have to chose to fellowship with one or the other when you can't fellowship with both (ecclesiastically speaking). There are some good Primitive Baptist people and churches here in Texas, but I know that the "absolute" issue is a big one. Some of the "absoluter" associations here don't even fellowship with some of the other "absoluter" associations. I can't even begin to understand what it is about. Texas Baptists are perhaps more fractional than most. Probably partly because of the background of Baptists who came to Texas from all over and many different types.
     
  14. doodle

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    What Bro. Gadsby was talking about is the futility of Arminian belief, that there is "ever" anything that man must do for his salvation is foolishness. Salvation is of the Lord and none else. BTW, a Strict or Particular Baptist is not the equivalent to a Primitive Baptist. There are many institutions that Primitive Baptist do not hold to that Particulars were involved with, such as a formal religious education.

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