Old Nature and Romans 7/8

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by saturneptune, Jan 29, 2012.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    This is a thread for me to get an idea of what you all think, more than a debate thread, so maybe I can gain better understanding. There are some very intelligent people on this board. I heard the position expressed lately that when the Lord saves us, the new nature is all that is inside our being, and that the old nature is completely gone. I have also heard the opinion expressed that the old and new nature exist side by side. If only the new nature is in us as Christians, how do we explain the following three areas:

    1. Carnal Christians, if there is such a thing
    2. Our continued sinning, even if it is not the desire of our hearts anymore
    3. If the old nature is gone, what was Paul struggling with in Romans 7.

    No doubt this has been discussed before, as there is nothing new under the sun, but I would appreciate any responses.
     
  2. beameup

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    As long as you are in a body, you have the "old man" to contend with.
    The only way to contend with the "old man" is to rise above it into the "spiritual man".

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here is a "teaser" verse:
    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit
    do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    - Romans 8:13
    PS: think of the terms "die" and "live" as not referring to physical death.
     
    #2 beameup, Jan 29, 2012
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  3. freeatlast

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    If only the new nature is in us as Christians, how do we explain the following three areas:
    First keep in mind that there is no such thing as old nature mentioned in the bible for a believer. That is a man made doctrine to offer a reason/excuse as to why we sin after salvation. In other words it is a way to keep from taking total responsibility for our sinning by admitting I just wanted that sin or at least the experiance the sin would give me.

    1. Carnal Christians, if there is such a thing
    That would depend on what you mean by carnal. If you mean unlearned and making decisions based on human understanding verses making them from a spiritual understanding yes a Christian could be carnal in that regards. However if you mean someone who is a Christian and practicing sin and saying they are carnal then no. if they are practicing sin they are not Christians.

    2. Our continued sinning, even if it is not the desire of our hearts anymore
    I am not sure what you mean by continuing sinning. If you mean practicing sinning then the person is not a Christian. If you mean sinning from time to time Christians do this for a number of reasons. One is we are lazy and do not want to do all needed to stop sinning. It takes a lot of work to keep from sin. Paul says this;
    But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Another is an improper or incomplete love for the Lord. Another is we still like what some sin provides us at least in the moment of the sin because we are still in the flesh. We battle the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life, not a nature. It could be boiled down to immaturity, but not a sin nature as the bible makes that clear. 2Cor 5:17
    Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

    3. If the old nature is gone, what was Paul struggling with in Romans 7.
    Paul was not struggling with anything in Romans 7 in the sense of sinning. That is a bad understanding of what if going on. Paul is speaking to those who know the law, verse 1. He is dealing with most likely Jews and trying to point them to grace instead of law by showing what those who seek God through law experience and what those who seek God through grace experience. We know Paul was not suggesting that he was battling sin and losing the battle because Paul says he kept the law while under the law in PHL. So if he kept the law while under it he is not now losing the battle with sin now that he is under grace. This is what he says about himself while he was under the law
    Phl. 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    The old nature or old man is dead;
    Rom 6:6,7
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    Col 3:9
    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

    By the way that is another reason we know Paul was not saying he was losing the battle with sin in Romans 7
    The sad thing is that as long as some people have an excuse like the false teaching of old nature to explain why they sin after they are saved they will never deal with the real problem, their heart. They will always tell you how impossible it is for them not to sin.
     
    #3 freeatlast, Jan 29, 2012
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  4. Iconoclast

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    The old man is crucified.

    Paul as well as us are still in an unredeemed body.We still get hungry,thirsty,tired, still have sexual desires...etc.

    As new creatures...sins reigning power is broken...yet we are still able to sin.

    We cannot live in a practice of sin however...as if we were natural or unsaved men.God disciplines all His children.
    4

    There is no carnal christian....this is a man made false teaching based on a mis-understanding of 1cor 2-3.......they were acting as...natural men,carnal..

    instead of who they profess to be...spiritual....see romans 8;1-15...

    PAUL EXPLAINS THIS AS THE MOTIONS OF SIN ...IN HIS MEMBERS

    17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



    THe false carnal christian theory is used by people to "protect" their false professors who are still living in the flesh,,,carnal in the heart.

    They tell them they will lose a few rewards in heaven...but they are just fine.
     
  5. DaChaser1

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    We still have the sin nature residing within us, the HS in us will and does gave us the means to overcome the Flesh, but we need to yield to His control over us

    that is why we earnest groan and look forward to our new bodies at Second Coming of Christ, as then we will be completely sauntified, NO sin /old nature within us anymore to fight with!!
     
  6. DaChaser1

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    As long as we are still in our human 'flesh", there is the old sin principle dwelling within us that desires to opposse us following the Lord!

    So still have that sin nature to deal with daily, by making the delibrete choice to reckon it as being crucified with/in Christ, and submit its desires/lust to the control of the HS indwelling us now as Christians!
     
  7. freeatlast

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    No believer has a sin nature. You need to show us from scripture that we do instead of adding to scripture with false beliefs. Here is the proof we do not have sin natures;
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    Col 3:9
    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
     
  8. DaChaser1

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    guess the Apostle John, when stated we have 3 enemies, world/satan/our flesh was wrong, Eh?

    Apostle paul telling us that even he had to fight against the sin principle warring in his immer members was wrong to, Eh?

    and Jesus will bring back when he returns our 'full inheritance" which will be glorified bodies, complete and final saucntification...

    was He wrong also?
     
    #8 DaChaser1, Jan 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2012
  9. freeatlast

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    Your a trip! You make up things that scripture does not say. Post the passage you are referring to. Not only do you misrepresent others you misrepresent the word of God.
    No believer has an old nature. That is a false claim used by those who seek to cover their sins with an excuse.
    Here is the proof we do not have sin natures;
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    Col 3:9
    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
     
  10. DaChaser1

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    read romans 6
    point of the Apostle was that we no longer have to/must/need to be enslaved by our old nature, that it was crucified with christ, so that now we CAN submit to the HSindwelling us, and have Him be our master now...

    we do NOT need to submit to the flesh, that will be bad, encourage to submit to God...

    daily, we can freely chose to either submit to the desires of the flesh, and have rotton fruit, or submit to the HS, and produce good fruit!

    Christians can chose which will master them, God wants us to chose wisely and produce a bountiful fruit harvest!
     
  11. freeatlast

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    There is no old nature in the believer. So you agree that a Christian can choose not to sin?
     
  12. DaChaser1

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    always have said that!

    its just that we DO have to reject the influence of the old nature , sin principle still in us...

    Just that we can reduce the sinning in our lives, just NOT totally eliminate it!
     
  13. freeatlast

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    You are contradicting yourself. First you say we can choose not to sin then you say we cannot not sin. Which is it?
    Don't you see just how confused your doctrine is? It is so confused you don't even agree with yourself much less the word of God. So again which is it. We can choose not to sin or we cannot?
     
  14. DaChaser1

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    can chose not to sin, but will still sin at times, and those are times to repent and confess that to God!

    For I have the flesh/world/devil to entice/tempt me, and though can overcome that through the HS in me, abiding and practicing the Bible, will still sin at times due to being still in my sinful flesh!
     
  15. freeatlast

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    So what does that mean? Are you saying that sometimes you sin because you choose to even though you do not have to?
     
  16. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: Very well, and methodically, stated.
     
  17. DaChaser1

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    ALL sins that I commit with knowledge is my decision...

    Again, we still have a sin principle that works against me doing what the new nature inn me wants me to do...

    IF i sin against God, what caused me to do that IF I no longer even have a sin nature to entice me to do that then?
     
  18. freeatlast

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    You still do not see your problem. You deny your sin. It is impossible to confess sin if we believe we are being caused to sin. Just because we admit that we sin is not confession. You say; "IF i sin against God, what caused me to do that " . Nothing caused you to sin. You choose to sin. There was nothing to cause Adam and Eve to sin but choice and there is nothing to cause you to sin but choice. That is why our sin is so utterly sinful. No believer has a sin nature causing them to sin.
     

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