"Old nature vs. New"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Sojourn(f)orTruth, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. Sojourn(f)orTruth

    Sojourn(f)orTruth
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    I recently heard a message referring to Rom. 6:6. The Pastor stated that we no longer posess our old nature, as we are a new creature (2 Cor.5:17). He instead used the term "flesh" as that whith which our "new nature" (spiritual)contends, in our struggle for obedience. As I would not argue the use of the term "flesh", I have always understood that our struggle is that of our "old nature" (synonemous with the flesh), to be against that of our "new nature"; and that the truth (of our "old man" having been crucified), to be presently "positional" in nature. I suppose what my actual question is: Has the "old nature" (old man) been literally eradicated, or does that take place with the glorification of the physical body?
     
  2. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Hi Sojourn(f)orTruth,

    Welcome to the Baptist Board! [​IMG]

    I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and you to us.

    The "old nature" is the former lifestyle of a man who has been made a new creature in Christ. A “Christian” who clings to his former lifestyle is committing adultery with Christ,

    Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
    2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
    4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

    2 Cor. 5:17. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    There is no such thing as “positional” righteousness or “positional” this or that.

    1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. (NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Brother James

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    Paul certainly had a problem with his old nature. Are you saying that once you're saved the oil nature is gone? It'll be gone when your dead. Is there any sin in your life? Of course there is. There is sin in every life because we all have to deal with our depravity on a daily basis.

    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


    Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


    Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.


    Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.


    Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


    Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


    Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
     
  4. ascund

    ascund
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    Greetings

    I think Craigbythesea gave a confused post. He provided a lot of good stuff but in a contradictory fashion.

    Yes! we are dead to the old nature (Rom 7). But notice that it is we who died and not the old nature. This is a positional death based on Christ's EXTERNAL righteousness.

    Paul, in romans 8, yet talks about his fight with the sinful flesh. The flesh lives!

    Craig is blatantly wrong when he declares:
    If there is no positional righteousness based on Jesus Christ's EXTERNAL perfect righteousness, then we are left with nothing but INTERNAL self-righteousness. This is rather damning since the Bible affirms that the heart is so desperately wicked that we cannot rightly realize how corrupted we are (Jer 17:9). The Bible affirms that even in our best of states that we are but vanity (Psal 39:5). Even our best righteous deeds are filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

    If Craig is right, then we all go to hell.
    thank God for Jesus' EXTERNAL righteousness that is imputed to us (II Cor 5:19-21) while we are yet filthy sinners.

    Luther's statement simul justus et peccator looks really accurate! The believer is at the same time both justified and a sinner. On one hand, the believer’s whole existence is a walk in God’s light on the basis of certain forgiveness. On the other hand, God’s forgiveness and pardon are imperfectly realized in the believer’s life[from my finally completed disseration]!

    Lloyd
     
  5. Brother James

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    Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."
     
  6. Brother James

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    From the westminster confession:

    v. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave, for a season, his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;(t) and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.(u) (t) 2Chron. 32:25,26,31; 2Sam. 24:1 (u) 2Cor. 12:7-9; Ps. ch. 73; 77:1-12; Mk. 14:66-72 with John 21:15-17.
     
  7. Artimaeus

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    No. The old man has not been eradicated. Our spirit has been redeemed, our soul is being redeemed, and our body will be redeemed. Our old man, old nature, old unregenerate, untransformed, and unrenewed mind is what is in the process of being reworked in this life. Putting off this "old man" is our responsibility as is our putting on of the "new man". This is why He tells us to do it. This responsibility cannot be accomplished without Christ and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

    Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
    Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    "Get with the program" is an expression which means that we are submitting to a particular line of thinking. In my business we call it being "in the house". In the Bible it is referred to as "putting on the new man". The final goal, of course, will be to be completely transformed to the image of Christ which will not happen until we reach Heaven.

    The book of James is an excellent tutorial on how to fulfill our roll of "getting with the program".
    [​IMG]
     
  8. LaymansTermsPlease

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  9. Craigbythesea

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    Brother James wrote,

    All of the verses that you posted in support of this grossly absurd notion are found in Romans 7:14-25. In this passage Paul is writing using the rhetorical “I” to describe the experience of a devout Jew who was striving to keep the Law of Moses, but finding that he was not able to do so. Paul was a Christian and Christians do not strive to keep the Law of Moses! The man in Rom. 7:14 was “sold into bondage to sin.” Paul was redeemed by the blood of the lamb. The man in Rom. 7: “joyfully concur[red] with the law of God.” Paul wrote “the power of sin is the law.” 1 Cor. 15:56.

    Rom 7:14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
    15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
    16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
    17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
    19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
    20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
    22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
    23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
    24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
    25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    Absolutely! It is impossible to be born again until the old nature dies. Once we are born again, however, we can choose to live whatever life style we choose, and if we choose to revert back to our old life style and live according to our old nature, we are committing adultery with Christ. True Christians do not have an old nature—they have a “divine nature.” 2 Pet. 1:4.

    Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
    2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
    4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

    True Christians have already been crucified with Christ and have died and been buried in water baptism. Gal. 2:20; Rom. 6:3.

    John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
    32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
    33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
    34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
    35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
    36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

    1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
    3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
    4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
    5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
    6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
    7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Brother James

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    What kind of Baptist are you? The old nature is gone and we're buried in Christ in water baptism? You are a class A HERETIC. Are you with a straight face going to tell us that your old nature is eradicated and that you do not nor have you ever sinned since the day you were saved? Do you really believe water baptism puts you into Christ?
     
  11. Brother James

    Brother James
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    BTW, your reading of Romans is grossly in error. Repent that God may recover you from you false doctrine.
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    ascund wrote,

    All of these verses are true of the unregenerate Jew of whom they are speaking; none of them of true of the born-again child of God.

    No, only those who are NOT saved from sin will go to hell.

    Where in this passage do you find any mention of “Jesus' EXTERNAL righteousness”?

    There is no such thing as “Jesus' EXTERNAL righteousness.” Jesus was righteous, period. The moment that we place our faith in Christ to save us, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we have a clean slate. It is up to us to keep it clean by grace through faith. If we let it get dirty, it is dirty and we are no longer just in the sight of God. God is not blind, and He does not have the blood of Jesus in His eyes to blur His vision. He sees us for what we really are. Before we were justified, He saw us as sinners. When we were justified, He saw us as Christians without spot or wrinkle. After our justification, He continues to see us as we really are. If there is sin in our life, He sees it and He convicts us of that sin that we might repent of that sin and once again be holy.

    1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Let no one deceive you! There is no “positional” righteousness. There is only righteousness and sin. Those who practice righteousness are Christians and heaven bound; those who practice sin are sinners and are hell bound.

    Luther was confused about many things. This quote is proof of it. The very moment in time that a man is justified he is made free from all sin. If he falls back into sin, he is no longer justified, but once again a sinner.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    Artimaeus wrote,

    Artimaeus,

    The Scriptures that you posted to support your position actually refute your position. Let’s look first at the passage from Ephesians in context,

    Ephesians 4:17. So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
    18. being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
    19. and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
    20. But you did not learn Christ in this way,
    21. if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
    22. that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
    23. and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
    24. and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. (NASB, 1995)

    Paul is writing here that Christ taught that we are to “lay aside the old self.” In the Greek text, the verb translated “lay aside” is an aorist infinitive, meaning “to lay aside once and for all.”

    Now let’s look at the passage from Colossians in context,

    Col. 3:9. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
    10. and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--
    11. a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
    12. So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
    13. bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

    Notice the words “you laid aside” and “have put on.” The Greek verb translated here “you laid aside” is an aorist participle indicating one single act rather than a continuous act of laying aside. The Greek verb translated here “have put on” is an aorist participle indicating one single act rather than a continuous act of putting on.

    (All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Brother James

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    "Luther was confused about many things. This quote is proof of it. The very moment in time that a man is justified he is made free from all sin. If he falls back into sin, he is no longer justified, but once again a sinner".

    Luther was confused? Again, what kind of baptist are you? You believe in sinfull perfection this side of death, baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation. You are probably a Church of Christ troll.
     
  15. Brother James

    Brother James
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    BTW, what did Paul mean when he said he was the chief of sinners?
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    Martin Luther was not a Baptist; he was a Roman Catholic! Have you ever read what he wrote about water baptism? No, I guess that you haven’t.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. blackbird

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    Tell us what he wrote about water baptism, Craig---enlighten our weak minds!!!
     
  18. Craigbythesea

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    • If Paul was writing about his state as a Christian, he was a worse sinner than Adolph Hitler, and the fact that his writings are included in the New Testament is absolute proof that our New Testament Canon is worse than nonsense.

    • If Paul was writing about his state as a Jew while persecuting Christians, then he was exalting Christ and His Church.

    Personally, I find your interpretation to be somewhat offensive. Paul was writing about his state as a Jew while persecuting Christians.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    Blackbird wrote,

    Do you really want me to post three volumes of Roman Catholic theology on this Baptist Message Board in a Baptist only forum?

    Perhaps you misunderstood my post; I believe that Martin Luther was mistaken in his Roman Catholic views on water baptism.

    By the way, where did you go to Mass this past Saturday night?

    :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  20. blackbird

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    I stayed home from Mass and watched NCAA football [​IMG] [​IMG] ! Nothin' wrong with that, is there?? :D
     

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