Old Test. New Test. salvation

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Steve K., Dec 26, 2002.

  1. Steve K.

    Steve K.
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    How do Old Test.and New Test. salvation differ?
    They are as different as night and day. Hence we call them by different names.
    For instance we do not have to do the sacrifices for forgiveness for our sins as under Levitical law.
    Noone in O.T. is in Christ or born again or spiritually circumcised. Those are N.T. exclusively.
    O.T. saints would go to paradise in the center of the earth when they died if they had been obedient to the law. They were held there until Christ fullfilled the wonderful plan of salvation that we enjoy today.
    Let the discussion begin!!!
     
  2. KenH

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    Salvation has always been and will always be by grace alone throught faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone to the glory of God alone revealed by Scripture alone.
     
  3. Steve K.

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    Hi Ken thanks for the quick feedback. We are obviously at opposite ends of the spectrum so I hope this will be a good biblical discussion.
    How would you explain the fact of the sacrifices being required for forgiveness in the O.T. and in the future but not now? Noone is questioning grace,faith or the glory of God. We now have the blood of Christ to cleanse us but what about O.T. folks? Have you ever read anything close to Jn. 3:16 in the O.T. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say!
     
  4. KenH

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    What sacrifices in the future? Jesus has already paid for the sins of His people. There is no other sacrifice to be made.

    The sacrifices in the Old Testament, per the book of Hebrews, were in anticipation of the true sacrifice of Jesus. The Old Testament sacrifices did not forgive sins. The blood of bulls and goats cannot do that.

    [ December 26, 2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
     
  5. Steve K.

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    Did you read Leviticus where it says the sins were forgiven provided the people did the sacrifices? Lev 4:35 for one.
    Back to O.T. set-up in Jerusalem in millenium.
    Temple,altar,offerings ,feasts etc..
     
  6. KenH

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    I am not a dispensational premillennialist so your idea of future animal sacrifices I simply do not accept as we have totally different eschatological beliefs.

    Have you read Hebrews 11:11 where the Holy Spirit had the writer to state that the sacrifices that the priests offered can never take away sins, and Hebrews 10:4 that states that it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins?

    Forgiveness in the Old Testament was in anticipation of the sacrifice of Jesus for sins. It was not the animal sacrifice that secured salvation for anyone. The animal sacrifice was a type of the sacrifice that Jesus would make(antitype) to secure salvation for sinners.
     
  7. Baptist Believer

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    Paul makes the point in Galatians and Romans (read Galatians first because that is essentially the crux of the letter), that salvation in the Old Testament is the same as the New Testament. We just have more information in the New Testament.

    All those who come to faith in Christ come to Him the same way that Abraham did.
     
  8. blackbird

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    Every OT Saint from Adam on--looked forward by faith in anticipation of what coming Messiah would come and do--Every NT Saint looks backward by faith in celebration of what Messiah(Jesus) did when He came!

    Your friend,
    Blackbird
     
  9. Ben W

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    an Old Testament Saint gained Salvation by keeping the Old Testament Law. The New Testament saint gains Salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

    Old Testament Saints went to heaven when they died.
     
  10. Steve K.

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    Hey guys the apostles didn't even know about the death burial or ressurection and they walked with Christ everyday. How is it you think a person that didn't even have abible knew it? Where were Abraham and Lazarus when the rich man talked with them?
    Luke 24;11 Luke 24;21 Luke 24;19 Luke 24;55&56
    Luke 24;45 says The opened he their understanding... Not until then because it was not in affect until then. Thanks for all the feedback.
     
  11. blackbird

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    How was the law kept before Moses gave it?
    How was Abraham saved--400 years before the law?
    Jacob?
    Issac?
    Rebekkah?
    Able? Hebrews 11 tells us that they all were saved by faith and they lived by faith!

    Your friend,
    Blackbird
     
  12. Steve K.

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    Hey Blackbird good thinking! That is rightly dividing and proves a different covenant.It has always been about obedience to what God said but God used different means for atonement.Noone ever got to heaven any other way than the blood of Christ but O.T. saints were kept by the law UNTIL it was fulfilled.They were not trusting in the finished work of Christ as we do.The world killed Christ for claiming to be who he was. For a clear understanding read;
    Gal.3:16-27 verse 23 says"But BEFORE faith came we were kept under the law,shut up unto the faith which should AFTERWARDS BE REVEALED."
    They went to paradise in the center of the earth when they died if they kept the law. Be careful not to call something a picture that God calls atonement.Leviticus is just such a place.
     
  13. Steve K.

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    Ken the blood of bulls and goats did gain forgiveness for sins in the O.T. Read the reference in Lev. I gave.The blood of bulls and goats cannot TAKE AWAY sin.as Hebrews says
     
  14. Helen

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    A few points:

    Steve, salvation is through Christ and has never been any other way. Before the Incarnation He was the Promise of God. Thus, Job states, "I know my Redeemer lives", and Job was before Abraham.

    We don't know, by the way, WHERE Paradise or "Abraham's Bosom" was located, but it was a resting place of hope for those who died believing in that Promise and putting their faith in God and God alone for salvation/rescue/redemption. Because Jesus was the first back in heaven, they had to wait for His resurrection and ascension, but they are in heaven now.

    The Old Testament sacrifices were all pictures and requirements regarding obedience to God. You will find, however, in Isaiah 1, the following:

    "The multitude of your sacrifices --
    What are they to me?" says the Lord.
    "I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
    of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
    I have no pleasure
    in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
    When you come to appear before me,
    who has asked this of you,
    this trampling of my courts?
    Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
    Your incense is detestable to me,
    New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations --
    I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
    Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
    my soul hates.
    They have become a burden to me;
    I am weary of bearing them.
    When you spread out your hands in prayer,
    I will hide my eyes from you;
    even if you offer many prayers,
    I will not listen.
    Your hands are full of blood;
    wash and make yourselves clean.
    Take your evil deeds
    out of my sight!
    Stop doing wrong,
    learn to do right!
    Seek justice,
    encourage the opppressed.
    Defend the cause of the fatherless,
    please the case of the widow.

    "Come now, let us reason together,"
    says the Lord.
    "Though your sins are like scarlet,
    they shall be as white as snow;
    though they are red as crimson,
    they shall be like wool.
    If you are willing and obedient,
    you will eat the best from the land;
    but if you resist and rebel,
    you will be devoured by the sword."
    For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.


    Thus, I think it is safe to say that the sacrifices were not the method of atonement, but rather it was trust and obedience given the Lord in making the sacrifices -- a dependence on Him and not on the sacrifices themselves. If this is not the case, then either the Torah or Isaiah is not telling the truth!

    In the same way that James reminds us that if a man says he has faith but his actions do not show that condition of his heart, then his faith is dead -- in that same way, the actions of the Israelites regarding the sacrifices showed their submission and obedience to God. However we have no record in the Bible or in history at all of the Israelites allowing the land its Sabbaths, and for this, among other things, the Lord punished them. But over and over again He talks about their disobedience and the hardness of their hearts in the prophets, and not their lack or surplus of sacrifices.

    You asked about something like John 3:16 in the OT. The promise was given to Eve, which means to all, as she was the mother of all the living. The promise given to Abraham was that ALL nations would be blessed. Job knew his Redeemer lived then. David and Agur both knew God had a Son (Psalm 2 and Proverbs 30). The knowledge was there for the people.

    Did they know about the Resurrection to happen? Yes, they did.

    I know that my Redeemer lives,
    and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
    And after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet in my flesh I will see God;
    I myself will see him
    with my own eyes -- I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

    Job 19:25-27

    Therefore my heart is glad an my tongue rejoices;
    my body also will rest secure,
    because you will not abandon me to the grave,
    nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

    Psalm 16:9-10

    Psalm 22 also traces the final victory after the crucifixion, as referenced by Christ Himself on the cross for His disciples, to encourage them.

    It was also a story written in the stars, themselves, as the heavens truly did declare the Glory of God (which is not simply twinkling stars, but Christ Himself):

    http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/

    Blackbird, I agree with all of what you have said, but if you look at the books of Genesis, and Exodus, you will find the law was already known before Moses. However men had added so much to it (as evidenced by the Code of Hammurabi, which dates before Moses, contains some of the commandments, and yet adds innumerable detailed laws), that writing the simple form on stone was totally necessary to get people back to what God said and not just what man said (you will find Jesus was angry about this very thing with the Pharisees and teachers of the law in Matthew 23). The Sabbath was known -- look at the collection of manna. The law about murder was known -- Genesis 9. The requirement to worship God only was certainly known. Honoring one's parents, not stealing, not commiting adultery (check the Pharoah's reaction to Abraham's lie about Sarah) were all known. It's just that man messes up God's meaning so much!
     
  15. Steve K.

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    Well if what you think contradicts scripture it should be rethought.
    Can anyone explain how they trusted in Christ if they did not know wht he meant by his crucifixion?
    Let's keep it scriptural with references please.
     
  16. Steve K.

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    No mention of the blood of Christ in Job.
     
  17. Helen

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    Shoot, Steve, I really thought that was Scripture I was quoting there!

    Salvation does not depend on intellectual comprehension, by the way -- it depends on one's relationship with Christ. I am quite sure you and I do not have near the intellectual comprehension of everything we WILL have comprehension of later, but God has graciously saved us anyway, eh?
     
  18. Baptist Believer

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    With all due respect, you are incorrect here.

    Paul spends quite a bit of time on this very subject in Galatians 3:2-29 and Romans 3:9-4:25 (especially 4:1-25). Paul clearly shows that Abraham was made righteous with God hundreds of years before the Law was given. (Remember, the Law came through Moses after the Israelites came out of Egypt.) Paul shows that people come to Christ the same way in both the Old and New Testament eras, whether Jewish or Gentile, exactly the same way.
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    Obviously, knowing about the crucifixion is not required for salvation.

    I submit to you the entire letter to the Galatians.
     
  20. Steve K.

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    Knowing about the cucifixion not necessary for salvation? Come on now let's keep it scriptural.Galations was the reference I gave. Did you read it? Again noone born again in O.T. noone in Christ in O.T.
    Just the name Old Tes. and New Test. should tell you there is a difference.
    If you touch a dead body or do not keep the Sabbath or eat pork or hear someone curse and do not do what was REQUIRED in O.T. what happens to you? What happened to people in O.T.?
     

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