Old Testament example of Calvinistic thinking???

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by agedman, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    It seems as though a contrast between Moses and Pharaoh would be an example of Calvinistic thinking.

    Both pharaoh and Moses grew up in the same household and experienced pretty much the same schooling and influences.

    Both pharaoh and Moses were educated and well versed in all the gods of the Egyptian empire.

    God using foreknowledge of what he determined to make the history, He selected Moses from birth for a direct purpose that would be the envy of any preacher. Moses had no desire to seek God, but was drawn to God by direct revelation while on the job site for his father in law. There is no indication that Moses chose God, rather it was totally God’s initiative that drew Moses and placed him in God’s face to face presence. Other than Adam, was any other Old Testament character in such a condition and relationship to God? To actually see God’s reflection, must have been awesome – the Scriptures record it as a body changing experience!

    The Scriptures clearly state that God was most aware of the condition of pharaoh’s heart before He called Moses, and He predestined (predetermined) to further harden his heart. Pharaoh was certainly called to the job of ignoring and making light of Moses’ invitations, so that God’s will and glory would be done to the empire of Egypt. Pharaoh continually looked to himself and his holy men to justify his rulings, and even when he finally let the Israeli folk leave, pharaoh had no heart to from God, but willfully chose to chase with the intent to persecute the people chosen by God. However, God will always be glorified, even in the midst of the evil (ones) for did not God through His hand, alone, deliver the people? Is not this a picture of the rapture of the church just as the crossing of the Jordan and entering into the promised land is a picture of the saints entering into their eternal rest?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
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    This is not scripturally accurate. Moses believed in God while he was in Egypt.

    Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
    25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
    27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
    28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
    29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

    You need to remember that Moses was raised by his real mother. While it is not expressly said, it is implied that he was taught that he was not an Egyptian but a Hebrew. When he killed the Egyptian he was defending his fellow Jew.

    Exo 2:8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother.

    The girl who approached Pharaoh's daughter was Miriam, Moses's older sister. She went and fetched Moses' mother to nurse him. So Moses was raised by his mother in Pharaoh's house.

    Exo 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
    12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

    God was working in Moses' heart 40 years before he saw the burning bush. He had long desired to deliver his people from bondage to the Egyptians.

    Acts 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
    23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
    24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
    25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
    26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?

    So, as you see, Moses was raised believeing in the true God, and long before he saw the burning bush God had put it in his heart to deliver his people.
     
  3. glfredrick

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    Sorry Winman, but you have to go back even further in Moses' life. God caused him to be spared at birth before he even had a hint of a chance at choice. Nice try though! :thumbs:
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    You know brother....that one will always try! :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #4 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2011
  5. Robert Snow

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    This doesn't even apply to what Winman is saying. Nice try though.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman
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    You quoted:
    Heb 11:24 - 29

    That section tells us that perhaps Moses' mother had influence on his choice of heir-ship – not that it is spelled out in the scriptural account. And that influence made Moses quite sensitive to the plight of the Jews - for he murdered for them. But it could just as well have been. That would account for the sequence of events as recorded in the Old Testament through verse 24 and 25.

    However, the Scriptures state, “Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian” Ex 2:15

    So, Moses fled – whether he did it out of fear, or by divine prompting in a dream (as Joseph) we are not told – he certainly left in a hurry. A person doesn’t shuffle along when fleeing.

    Then after the burning bush and on his way to Egypt, the Lord sought to kill Moses.
    Why did the Lord seek to kill Moses (“And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him”) if Moses was “right with God” and doing God’s will? In my opinion, Moses had yet to reject completely Egypt and embrace totally his call – also born out in the timidity shown by Moses at the burning bush few verses earlier. Is this not the way it is with many new believers? The further one walks in the path of Christ, the more assuredly they can walk.
    Remember that Exodus account tells us that Moses wasn’t timid at all but was “mighty in word and deed.” This was before he fled Egypt.

    “ Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.” This is not only physically a painful process, but is an example of the separation of God’s chosen being joined to a new path. This process demonstrates the promise of God as not abandon able. Once removed the foreskin cannot be reattached. It is that way with the believer. We are secure in Christ.

    Therefore, beginning in verse 26 of Hebrews, we see a changed Moses not fearing the king, not holding the power and wealth as worthy in comparison to serving God, and continuing with the synopsis to the red sea.
    These all took place after he fled Egypt, for he would never have fled had he not felt the need.

    Therefore, it is my contention that the passage you posted can only fit correctly into the Old Testament account if taken in the sequence that I submit.

    However, the Hebrews passage does not fit if taken in the sequence of events as you state them.

    Btw, just because he had the desire (put by God) to deliver His people, didn’t mean he had yet developed a true relationship to the Redeemer.

    Many have a purpose driven life without knowing the one who purposes that life.
     
  7. Winman

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    Agedman, I prefer to believe what Heb 11:24-27 says, that Moses had FAITH before he ever left Egypt.

    And I never said God was not working in Moses' life even earlier, Heb 11:23 says by FAITH his parents hid Moses three months. So, it is a pretty safe assumption to believe that Moses was taught by his mother when she nursed him.

    And all believers fail at times, Moses was not allowed into the promised land because he disobeyed God.

    The fact that Moses wasn't circumcised reflects more on his parents than himself, how could he circumcise himself at eight days of age? And as shown in Heb 11:23 he was hid for three months. Perhaps his parents did not circumcise him so that if he was found he would not be identified as an Hebrew and be killed, this seems a reasonable explanation. After this Moses was raised until 40 years of age in Pharaoh's house with no opportunity to be circumcised. So, this does not necessarily reflect poorly on Moses. I do believe God did expect him to be circumcised after God spoke to him in the burning bush.
     
    #7 Winman, Nov 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2011
  8. agedman

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    If you believe that Hebrews 11 states clearly that Moses had faith before he fled from Egypt, that will merely be a mistaken interpretation on your part.

    The Scriptures do not state that, and in fact Exodus clearly shows that although he identified with the Jews, he also identified with the schooling and teachings of the Egyptians. The word "mighty" is used to establish not only his educational ability but his verbal acuity. He did not get that reputation from study of the torah - it didn't exist.

    As far as his mother being his wet nurse, the scriptures are clearly silent on just what he was taught by her and for how long.

    For you to make statements of belief on the basis of what you have presented, is merely wishful conjecture.
     

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