Old Testament re-generation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by crusader1611, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. crusader1611

    crusader1611
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    I was recently reading the infamous James White/Dave Hunt book on Debating Calvinism. When I came to the chapter about regeneration before salvation, Hunt brought up a point about OT saints believing without any enablement of the Holy Spirit. OT saints were not saved by obeying laws necessarily, they were saved by believing in a coming Messiah, and the practice of the law was their exercise of that faith. "Abraham believed and it was counted unto him as righteousness." James White never addresses this point in his rebutals. Is there any proof that the OT saints had to be elected or re-generated prior to their believing?? Or are the elect only the NT saints. Even if that is true, the human depravity has not changed between OT and NT, so that would mean that OT saints had to be regenerated by the Spirit and then they could believe.
     
  2. Wes Outwest

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    Throughout history there have been men whom God elected to their positions for His Honor and Glory. Examples include: Noah, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, Isaiah and the rest of the prophets, David a man after God's own heart, the Pharoah, even Joseph the betrothed of Mary the mother of Jesus, just to name a few. They were elect so that the rest of us would have a foundation upon which to base faith in God, the Creator. God is still "electing" men to leadership so that His Honor and Glory can continue to be shown in very real ways to the follow-on generations of men, so that they too can know the truth so the truth will set them free from the bondage of sin under which man who does not know God is captive. Jesus atoned for Sin, so that man through faith can have everlasting life, but he did not remove sin from man, only the penalty! FAITH is the determining factor of each individual man's destiny. If you have faith, you have eternal life. If you lack faith, you will be cast into the second death!

    Buy the way, Jesus' atonement for sin, was for all sin in all times! Once-for-ALL.
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi crusader1611;
    I don't believe there is one word in the oldtestament that supports regeneratgion by the Holy Spirit. Calvinist believe that this is necessary in order for man to believe when the Bible has never stated such a thing. This is mans idea and is not biblical.
    The Old Testament states that man has to create himself a new heart.
    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    These verses would have to be false scripture if man has no choice in his own Salvation.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. johnp.

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    Hello crusader1611 it's good to meet you.

    1CO 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
    1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    1TI 5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

    I include the angels to show that election was a fact even before the fall of man.

    GE 18:16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
    Since Abraham is the father of the faith and since he was chosen then all those with faith are the chosen.
    RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    Any use? :cool:

    johnp.
     
  5. billwald

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    There isn't a single verse in Exo thru Deu that applies to gentiles living outside Israel or to regeneration.


    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Obviously applies to life in this world, has nothing to with regeneration. "Death" refers to dying in this life.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    Doesn't regeneration occur in this life in this world?
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Under the O.T. economy only the prophets, priests, and kings of Israel plus a few artisans who worked on the Temple were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The Israelite laity were always backslidding because they did not have this inner Presence of Christ through the Spirit in their lives.

    Even Peter did poorly until after Pentecost.
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Billwald;
    No one was regenerated but they were set aside in Abraham's bossom There spirits didn't go to hell. They were kept from Satans grip until they had a chance to hear the gospel
    Ezk 18:31-32 and 33:11 Your coment;
    Not just life in this world but a chance for life in the next.
    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    The turning from evil ways is a clear indication this isn't just talking about life in this world. The wages of sin is death eternally avoiding sin meant life. Many evil people live as long a lives as the saved. So your presumption cannot be so. God was not threatening them with loss of Physcial live but spiritual lives.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    There is not a verse in all of Scripture that teaches this. Never is he coming Messiah made the content of saving faith in the OT. The oft quoted verse about Abraham doesn't say what Abraham believed and the context in which it appears makes it clear that it was not the coming Messiah that he believed in.

    The nature of man in the OT and NT is the same ... totally depraved sinners. The requirements are the same for savlation.

    Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus gives irrefutable proof that regeneration is an OT idea. When Jesus talked about the new birth, he rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing about it already.
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    How can you say that? When there is nothing in the oldtestament about regeneration Before Christ. Men didn't have the Holy Spirit living inside of them to regenerate them.
    Calvinist claim that this regeneration creates in us a new heart so that we can believe. The Old Testament says that men had to create for them selves that new heart and cast away there evil ways.

    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Yet you claim that the requirements were the same then for Salvation as they are today.
    If men were saved the same way then, as they are today. Then how were they saved? When they didn't have a Savior. They didn't have the Atonement for there sins. Can one enter heaven in filthy raggs with no righteousness?. How did they make themselves clean when the blood of animals wasn't good enough to do this?.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Have you read John 3?

    Clearly, Nicodemus should have known this truth about regeneration from the OT.

    No, not if you look at Scripture as a whole. Man has the responsibility to believe. God is the one who regenerates.

    By faith.

    They believed God and responded to the revelation they had from God.

    Once again, we see a prime case where the Scriptures answer all these questions. Many of these debates are unnecessary. All we need to do is read the Scriptures.
     
  12. johnp.

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    1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

    JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

    And the resurrection. JOB 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

    [quotes]...filthy raggs...[/quote]
    That's selfrighteousness.

    johnp.
     
  13. johnp.

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    How can a bad heart create a good heart? That's God being sarcastic!
    Roman 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

    johnp.
     
  14. billwald

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    &gt;The Israelite laity were always backslidding &gt;because they did not have this inner Presence of &gt;Christ through the Spirit in their lives.

    The Christians backslide because???

    &gt;When there is nothing in the oldtestament about &gt;regeneration Before Christ.

    God can't do anything he hasn't told you about???
     
  15. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    The Jews didn't have scripture as a whole as we do all they had was the Old Testament. It doesn't say anything about regeneration so HoW did they or were they suppose to know?
    Should have but didn't. Seems you have the same problem that Nicodemus had. That is you wouldn't have know what Christ was talking about either. Your only evidence is, Christ being surprized that Nicodemus didn't know!. How could he know. It's intresting that there is no other name under heaven that we must be saved by, but Jesus. Yet this one name of His isn't mentioned in the Old Testament. Isaiah is the first to mention Imanuel. The thing is the messiah wasn't seen as a messiah of deliverance from spiritual death at all but from political persecution. How could someone be saved by the death and resurrection of Christ and not even know Him? They had no way of knowing unless they all had visions that no one talked about. Which is ludicrous.
    Either the Jews held out on us so we wouldn't have the complete truth of the Old Testament or people were never saints to begin with. Not one of the prophets were ever called saint. Maybe I missed something but are you basing this all on the fact that Nicodemus didn't know? This you believe because someone else didn't know that just doesn't make any sense.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  16. billwald

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    "If men were saved the same way then, as they are today. Then how were they saved?"

    By God's election.

    John 3 teaches that humans have no control over who is "born again."

    Exactly what is Nick supposed to have known? Chapter and verse?
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Billwald;
    God could have done alot of things but the things I know of He has always left word that He did. If being born again is so important there would have or should have been information for this to happen. It certainly doesn't mean that it did simply because Calvinist make the claim that it did. If doctrine isn't scriptural it isn't true, period. The ideas of men have no power to do squat.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Bill Wald;
    No one is saved without Christ not one. Election doesn't save a single person and scripture never says so.
    Not one word of this is true. Christ only spoke in parables to the people of which Nicodemus was one. This was a parable.
    He was suppose to know about being born spiritually. He was no doubt listening to Christ preach, but just like the disciples didn't understand until it was told to them.
    Even while the disciples had it explained to them they still didn't understand until they had it explained to them again by the resurrected Christ. None were saved until this moment not even the disciples.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    John 3 teaches that it is belief that causes us to born again! It does not teach regeneration because regeneration is a human's perspective of change of heart that man must have that Jesus was teaching Nicodemus! Know Ye Not that ye must be born again? Whosoever believeth....receiveth! Whosoever believeth not....receiveth not!

    By the way, define spirit of God!
     
  20. johnp.

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    Wes.

    1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them...

    That would take an eternity to define God Wes. If you do get a definition then it will be the same as the Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets I am sure.

    johnp.
     

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