omnibenevolence: to Satan?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    In another thread someone used this "omnibenevolence" (whatever that is) stuff to declare that God, being "omnibenevolent", basically means that he HAS to offer salvation to all of his creatures.

    Since he is all loving he has to try to save everything that falls and suffers.

    The idea of the non-cal here is that God has to try to save fallen creatures just like God has to always tell the truth.

    It is His nature to tell the truth so it is what he must do.
    Just so, to the non-cal, it is God's NATURE to love everybody so he must try to save everybody.

    Except... He doesn't try to save all fallen creatures.

    Did Christ die for Satan?

    Is God trying vociferously to redeem demons?

    Are they not his creatures?

    Ah, so God can ELECT which creatures he wants to save and leave the rest to their damnable fate.

    I see.
     
  2. DrJamesAch

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    God made man in His image. He made man totally different from angels. Angels/devils were not made with flesh and blood, and notice that Christ came IN THE FLESH to redeem those who were created flesh.

    You will never see anywhere in the Bible where an angel sacrificed a lamb for continued redemption in the OT. You will never see an angel asking Christ to save them by calling upon the name of the Lord.

    To compare Satan and his devils to mankind is erroneous because God had a completely different plan for mankind that is not possible for angels (like procreation and marriage Matt 22:30).

    But the most erroneous part of comparing humans to angels or devils is that you would presume in order to make your argument, that since God does not offer salvation to Satan, but provides permanency for "elect angels", that such is proof that God predetermines some HUMANS to damnation, and others to eternal salvation. This is wrong in several ways, the main contention being that Satan was created perfect (as was Adam). You would have to prove that all mankind after the fall had the same opportunity that Satan did prior to Satan's fall in order to compare all mankind to Satan.

    God did not need to provide a redemptive plan for angels because before he created humans, His command was simple to angels, DON'T REBEL. There are several places in the Bible where when someone hardens THEIR OWN HEART, then God continues to let them relish in their sin. The fact that God did not give Satan more chances then He gives humans does not negate the fact that Satan CHOSE to rebel when He could have chosen NOT to. That in no way proves that God determines some HUMANS to damnation and others to eternal life. The "redemption" for angels was not sinning in the first place. Thus the OFFER may be different for angels where the "offer" is simply don't rebel, that God offered differently to save angels by requiring them to be obedient in the first place, and offered salvation to humans by repentance by believing on Christ who was sacrificed in flesh does not change the nature of God's benevolence.

    The devil and the angles lived in a proximity to God that no human has ever experienced. They had the ability to know God unlike any human does now. They could see the glory of God, talk to God literally, and experience the goodness of God in a way that humans will not experience until they are glorified completely in heaven. Thus humans will experience all of God's fullness in heaven in a way that angels do now, and the redemption that was paid for humans is what provided the remedy to prevent their subsequent potential falling away.

    Satan having known God in all of His glory, WANTED to be more than God was and thus Satan was not ignorant in his actions toward God (as Paul says of himself as to why God had mercy on him in 1 Timothy 1:13). Satan did not ignorantly rebel. God says the same things of those in Hebrews 6 that those who were enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift IF they could fall away to renew them unto repentance. Repentance is never offered to Satan because they were in that exact position as the hypothetical persons in Hebrews 6:4-6.

    Because angels are not created with bodies, there is no way TO redeem them. A sacrifice can not be provided for spirits, and thus the entire nature of angels and humans is completely different.

    So no, God does NOT leave some "creatures elected to damnable fate and others to eternal life' because man never had the opportunity and intimate knowledge of God that Satan had prior to his fall.
     
  3. Luke2427

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    All of this is irrelevant to the point of this thread.

    Does God have to offer salvation to ALL fallen creatures or not?

    It's real simple, James.

    Yes or no?

    Can God elect to save some of his fallen creatures and leave the rest to their fate?

    Yes or no?
     
  4. DrJamesAch

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    The question itself is a loaded question fallacy. The question is not COULD He do it, but WOULD he and DID he. You are begging the question with a presupposition that eliminates the explanation for His plans for angels and His plans for humans. It's like asking COULD God UNELECT someone AFTER He elected them? If you apply that kind of begging the question, you could equally apply it to eternal security: COULD God cause someone to lose their salvation once He saves them? The question itself is based on a false premise. My first response adequately answers your initial post.
     
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    Pick one. Could he? Would he?

    It's REAL, REAL simple there, James.


    You obviously don't know what "begging the question" fallacy is.

    I am literally ASKING a question- a very simple one.

    Creatures- not just angels and not just men.

    Creatures period.

    The idiotic "omnibenevolence" argument is that God has to offer salvation to all men because he loves all his creatures.

    The argument is easily toppled with this fact.

    He DOESN'T offer salvation to all his creatures.

    No- he could not.

    Do you see how simple this is?

    First of all- NO, he could not.

    Secondly, there is absolutely NO correlation between this statement of your and my post.

    What I said in the op is NOTHING like what you say here.
     
  6. DrJamesAch

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    It is not just a "simple question" because you are mixing something together that does not belong in the same category with humans. Why don't we start comparing animals as well, I mean let's just take it all the way. Why do some fish get eaten for no reason at all and some other fish don't? Did God predestine some fish to die and others to live? Do the fish that died without Christ spend an eternal on sand-beach with no oxygen? Why wasn't a sacrifice made for them?

    But, if you must assume that God never gave angels a chance:

    "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, " 1 Peter 3:19-20.

    Furthermore, you violated the logic of your own question. I asked if God COULD cause someone to lose their salvation once they are saved and you said no, He couldn't. For God to fit your definition of sovereignty then God MUST have the ability to do what He CAN do, and for you to say that God could not is to say He is not powerful enough to do what He can do. If God can simply choose who He wants to save and choose who He wants to damn, then who are thou to reply against God to say that God can't make a vessel of honor into dishonor? There's nothing stopping God from taking your salvation if He wants to. The only way you can escape that fact is to argue against your own question.

    Thus if God is viewed simply on terms of what He COULD do, then NOBODY IS SAFE, NOT EVEN THOSE WHO ARE "SAVED".
     
    #6 DrJamesAch, Jul 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2013
  7. Aaron

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    If I remember correctly, some Jewish lore provides for the redemption of some angels, and Origen taught that eventually Satan himself would be redeemed.

    So, this isn't a so much a slam dunk, but it is fun to watch him squirm :thumbs:
     
  8. DrJamesAch

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    The most compelling evidence for arbitrary selection would be that some people were born with brains and common sense and others not so lucky.
     
  9. Luke2427

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    PRECISELY!! Let's!

    Creatures, right? God HAS to offer salvation to all suffering creatures affected by the fall, right?

    Does he or doesn't he??

    EXACTLY!

    Why?

    Answer your own question.

    Before I obliterate your interpretation of that verse, let me make sure I understand what you think that means.

    You think that verse clearly teaches that Jesus tried to save Satan and the angels, right?

    This is going to be fun.


    Wrong. There has probably never been a person on the face of the earth who is anymore than a half-witt who has ever purported that Sovereignty means God can do ANYTHING.

    In FACT, BECAUSE God is Sovereign he cannot do just anything.

    He cannot, for example, be in control of events and NOT be in control of them at the same time and in the same manner.

    That is BECAUSE he is Sovereign.

    James, you're not a doctor. Everybody knows it. I would not have to explain this to a doctor of ANY theological stripe.

    There is not an Arminian educated person on earth who would be so vehemently deficient in their understanding of logic and foundational theological ideas.

    You don't understand Election- at all.

    election means God has ALREADY and FOREVER decided who he is going to save.

    Since God does not change he CANNOT UNDECIDE what he has already DECIDED.
     

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