Omnipresense, where is it?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Darren, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. Darren

    Darren
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    This is a question that I've been stuck on for a while, and not just because I don't particularly believe the idea.

    Omnipresence is the idea that God is everywhere in the "hyper literal" sense. Literal could just mean in every city or something, but hyper literal leaves no room for the expressive. God exist whole in every square inch, every square centimeter, every Person, animal and grain of sand.

    Aside from the fact that to me, this serves no purpose, I have also often wondered about where it is even presented in the Bible. The idea is quite complex, and actually finding it in a Bible that doesn't use modern terms... I'd expect a reference a few paragraphs long to be honest, not just four or five out of context verses, which is all I've been able to find.

    Please, no accusations that this is part of God's soverienty. I'm tired of being called a heritic because I don't fall in line. Unless you'd like to explain why God needs to be on Pluto, where no man nor beast CAN live, in order to be master of your life. Or why does God have to be microscopic in order to rule the Universe?
     
  2. Deacon

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    Where can I go from your Spirit?
    Where can I flee from your presence?

    If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
    if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

    If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
    if I settle on the far side of the sea,

    even there your hand will guide me,
    your right hand will hold me fast.

    Psalm 139:7-10 TNIV


    Man has sent a satellite beyond the reaches of our solar system, why couldn’t God be there?
    We don’t know why God created this vast universe.
    I think it was Carl Sagan who said, “it seems like such a waste”.
    But we can be assured that it was created with purpose and even God is there.

    Omnipresence is related to omnipotence and works hand-in-hand with the doctrine of creation.
    God made it all and has intimate knowledge of its workings.
    He even knows the number of hairs on your head (Matt 10:30).
    Can anything happen without God being aware?

    It's assuring that God is there in the details.
    He knows the begining from the end.
    And because of that, we can trust him with everything that happens in our lives.
    We may not understand it, but we can trust him!

    Rob
     
    #2 Deacon, Apr 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2008
  3. Darren

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    Normally when someone takes things out of context like that, I present greater context to refute them (it is out of context, context in the case of a Psalm is usually the whole chapter and this is one no exception) but greater context doesn't contradict you. Psalm 139 is however, about David, not the world in general, something quite appearent. Therefore, I find it easy to say that this verse is simply talking about God being with David. Besides, at best it simply says God is everywhere in the world, and says nothing about a rediculous redundant existence either.

    I notice how you try to turn things around on me. This is not a discussion of where God CAN'T be, but rather, where He IS. Even if we could argue that God is CAPABLE of full omnipresence, that doesn mean He actually IS omnipresent. I'm sure He's also capable of turning oranges into apples, but He doesn't because He has no reason to.

    And I would respond to Carl, that this is not the first time we've had issues seeing eye to eye (I believe in six days of creation). Sure, creating a vast and incomprehencible universe couldn't possibly have a reason... aside from proving God's massive power, creative mind, giving us an undending expanse in which to expand, populate and explore, showing us that without a doubt He is bigger than our problems and lets not forget least of all... we never really have proved that we're alone in this universe have we? But other than that and few other hundred reasons, I can't think of any reason why God would make such a big universe. Sorry, not a fan of Carl Sagan.

    I'm not worried. To know that God is with me is more important to me than whether or not He has a doppler existence inside a grain of sand.

    Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. Thought to be dependant but actually they can each stand alone, one does not require the others. Discussing the big three is not something I want to do all at once. Can we please stick to the subject.

    Unless you'd also like to explain why, if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent and created an infinite universe in six days, He absolutely must also be Omnipresent to have any authority or worth while knowledge.

    I know I sound harsh, but I always get arguements like that, trying to show how one thing leads to another, when the points given are actually exclusive.



    Please tell me this was a mistake. Matthew 10:30 is NOT a verse about God's knowledge in general. It's not even a verse about His knowledge at all. Not many people know that of course:

    29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

    Full context is actualy Matthew 10, the whole chapter, and is about Jesus sending out the 12 apostles.

    The first time I was willing to give you the benifit of the doubt, because context didn't go against you, but here... are you reading your passages in full, or just looking for good sounding verses. I warn you, I will catch you at that.
     
    #3 Darren, Apr 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2008
  4. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Sorry Darren, I just don't see where your going with this. The important thing about the omnipresence of God is that he is always with us. There is no place where we can hide from God and there is no thing that he does not know. This would include very large things like stars in the heavens and very small things like viruses and diseases within our bodies.

    The verses that Deacon gave you illustrate how this was true to David. Other verses would include stuff like God knowing us in the womb before we were born, knowing the numbers of hairs on our heads, knowing when a bird dies. These things are true.

    What exactly is it you disagree with?
     
  5. Darren

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    It's a side issue I suppose in the end. You see I have an serious objection to slapping extra beliefs on the Bible, especially non sense ones like this, that barely make sense.

    If it's true or not itself, makes little difference to the meaning of things at the moment, but to me, if it is wrong, seeing that it is a universally accepted idea, than maybe other so called "foundational doctines" need to be examined.

    I read the Bible and see it as not a book for the faint of heart nor the blind believer. I see hundreds of examples of God and his followers MOCKING the blind faith many have in wooden gods. When the true God is real and demonstrates His existence to us.

    With all the division of the Chruch, maybe its time we took a look at what our founding beliefs are, and if they're valid by the Bible.

    I call myself a Baptist because I believe in interpreting the Bible as it is given to us, and attaching nothing more, and taking nothing away. I just have a problem with believing that most Baptist really do that.

    My point:

    If a doctrine is wrong, it should be dropped from doctrine. Is this one wrong?
     
  6. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    But your straining over a gnat in your definition of the doctrine. When I say God is omnipresent I mean he is always with me. When I say he is omniscient I mean he knows everything. I am not making statements about what percent of his present is in every square inch of air in a room or something like that. Your not really arguing over doctrine your arguing over semantics.
     
  7. rbell

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    Why are you trying to limit God?
     
  8. Darren

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    This has nothing to do with limiting God. I'm not saying a word about what He's CAPABLE of doing.

    Here's the question, for those of you who weren't really paying attention (seems a couple of you), is the doctrine of Omnipresence, as discribed in my first post, a false and or extra unnecessary doctrine?

    Yes, this represents only the tip of the ice berg of my questions on normal doctrine, but for now, since the rest of them are BIG issues, lets just examine this one. Maybe if I'm wrong, I'll have to examine again common doctrine and fall back in line. I doubt I'm wrong though.

    If we can't examine a simple doctrine like this, no wonder there are so many problems with fundimental ones. Imagine: what would happen, if when any doctrine was found to be dubious, it was called into consideration, and eventually dropped?

    This is a test. Can we examine ONE point and come to a conclusion?
     
  9. rbell

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    Oh well, since you think I'm "not paying attention.........."



    :wavey: I won't.
     
  10. LeBuick

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    What doctorine are you saying is wrong and where is your proof that it's wrong?

    I see you've made several personal observations that I disagree with but you are entitled to have. But I see no place where you proven the common understanding or its doctorine to be incorrect.

    What is your belief regarding a spirit? Where do they exist and do we comprehend their limitations if they have any? What is the purpose of Angels and do each of them communicate continually with God? Where does the soul go immediately after death?

    Yes, I believe there are mysteries in this universe that we won't fully comprehend until the by and by, but our lack of understanding does not make them any less true or real.

    Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
    2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
    3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
    4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
    5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
    6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
    9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
    10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
    11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
    12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
    13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
    14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
    15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
    16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
    17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
    18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
    19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
    20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
    21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
    22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
    23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
    24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
    25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
    26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
    27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
    28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
    29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
    30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
    31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
    32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
    33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
    34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
    35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
    36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
    37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
    38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
    39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
    40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
    41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

    Why is it hard to believe it did it all for His name sake?
     
  11. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
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    God is really big. Think of me over my model trainset. Everything is small, every detail is within my point of view, right? No. There are still things around corners, in shadow, behind trees that I can't see. It's not like that with Him. He can be on all sides of the table at the same time, and even under it. That's how I thinkit is with God... He really can see all of it.
     
  12. LeBuick

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    Are you asking why a God who created the expanse of the universe finds it necessary to know how many grains of sand he has on this shore?

    I say because it is his universe and he cares. Not only is the earth the Lords but also the fullness there of…

    Perhaps I just don't get your question???
     
  13. Dale-c

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    I think maybe I do.
    He is saying that with so much doctrinal differences, perhaps we need to reconsider everything, take nothing for granted.

    I agree.
    However, it seems that he wants to throw out certain doctrines just because he doesn't understand them, such as this one.

    On that I strongly disagree.
    He has shown no reason whatsoever to throw out this doctrine.

    Anyone who would limit God's omnipresence IS limiting God's power from that mans perspective.
    Of course God can't really be limited.

    But the more important fact about this is it seems that because this person can't understand the omnipresence of God, he has a hard time believing it.

    I do not understand heaven.
    I believe in it.

    I do not understand God's love.
    I believe in it.

    There are many aspects of God that mortal man can't understand.

    But to lower God to a god that we can understand is to fashion a god after our own image.
     
  14. Darren

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    Um... not sure where YOU are going. LEBUICK

    I don't have to prove that its incorrect, if it's not in the Bible there's absolutely no reason on God's green earth to believe it.

    All I have to say is, given that it is not in the Bible, it's unnecessary, it isn't logical and it doesn't make sense, therefore, God is not Omnipresent. Do we agree?

    It is enough that our God is with us. I'm not worried about Him being on Mars. I'm worried about Him being with my mom whilst she goes though cancer, for instance. But the Bible tells me He is with His servants, so I have no fear, for I know His hand is with her, whatever He allows to happen, I know is for the best. I know it's a purpose that I'll have a hard time grasping, at least for the time, but I'll give it time.

    Happy to answer your questions though:

    A free willing entity, being capable of making true choices independant of, though influenced by, physical cause and effect relationships. Allowing for things like logic, conversation, true emotions and various other things that have little meaning without such a being, -a soul- existing in us. What are they made of? No clue. If they have a physical existence as part of this particular demension, it must be resonating on frequencies our insterments cannot currently detect. An entirely reasonable idea, seeing that the majority of all frequencies that generate what we hear, feel, taste, smell and see, are actually completely undetecable to us.

    Where do souls exist? Don't really know. Likely part of this demension but some theorize that they exist in a parallel yet connected universe... I see little need for this though. As far as their limitations, human souls seem to need host bodies, just a theory that one though, they have bodies here and we're told later on we'll get new ones after we die. Obviously they have limits, and they must be quite limiting, otherwise we have vast power that for some weird reason we just don't tap... yea right. Or what makes God, God, if He is less than or equal to us? Come to think of it, by just this... what in the world are YOU getting at?

    Angels are the spiritual servants, soldiers and followers of God. Opposites of demons, they seem to have an existence similar to souls. Difference being that they don't seem to need host bodies. The Bible describes them as being only a little stronger than men, so perhaps too much clout is given them as to their power these days. However, in their world, it is for sure, that when ever a man fights one, an angel has one serious advantage: only the man can die. It seems in the spiritual world, or existence, physical death simply is not a rule.

    As to, are they in constant communication with God... the scripture seems clear that they are separate entities from God, and that they can even fall from Him, so I suppose they have a relationship with Him similar, at least in part, to our own. Only difference is, they can see Him.

    So far as the Bible is concerned: heaven or hell.

    That was fun. Anymore questions?

    Sigh. True. My explanations are often guesses, but it is worth giving a shot I think. We will understand it all better by and by. By the inch its a sinch by the yard its hard and by the mile... I forget. What are you getting at?

    Nice chapter, God getting ticked at Job. Sorry to sound sarcastic but I don't see you're point. Unless you're declaring that disagreeing with you, is like unto disagreeing with God, and I should check myself.

    I'm worried now. What are YOU getting at.

    What? Why is it hard for me to believe what did what for God's namesake?

    You are confusing me.
     
  15. Darren

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    To Dale-c

    I think maybe I do.
    He is saying that with so much doctrinal differences, perhaps we need to reconsider everything, take nothing for granted.


    Yes, thankyou, does this really need to be so hard?

    Again, thankyou. I'll put that in big letters so people can see it.

    Understanding is not a prerequisite. However, existence in the Bible is. If it's not in the Bible, and I can't understand it, why should I believe it? I shouldn't. Actually, as a matter of fact, that's a point of conviction for me. If something makes no sense, and isn't dictated to me by God Himself, I question it.

    My reason: it's not in the Bible. To prove that something doesn't exist is impossible. But in light of what we're doing, isn't it more ligit to ask where the doctrine DOES exist?

    How so? How are the two connected. Am I limiting God by saying, He doesn't... I don't know, make ponies into dragons? I'm trying not to be too sarcastic because you seem to be trying to catch on, but questioning what one DOES is not the same as questioning what one CAN do.

    There are plenty of things I don't understand that I still believe in. That's NOT EVEN CLOSE TO MY POINT!!!!!

    Agreed.

    How do I lower God by saying He created the universe in six days... oh I'm sorry, maybe you mean by me saying in other threads that His death broke the power of sin... wait, that can't be it... do you seriously mean, and I'm really having trouble with this, that because I don't think God is currently taking up residence in Alpha Centari, I'm lowering Him somehow? ONE DOES NOT LEAD TO THE OTHER!!!!
     
  16. Mexdeaf

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    Jehovah's witness doctrine?

    I refer you to Jeremiah 23:24- 'Do not I fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord'

    John Wesley rightly said, "Nay, and we cannot believe the omnipotence of God, unless we believe his omnipresence; for, seeing, as was observed before, nothing can act where it is not, -- if there were any space where God was not present, he would not be able to do anything there. Therefore, to deny the omnipresence of God implies, likewise, the denial of his omnipotence. To set bounds to the one is undoubtedly to set bounds to the other also."

    That being said, why are we allowing Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine to be discussed here? Denying the omnipresence of God is a JW fundamental.
     
  17. Darren

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    I addressed this before on a website of mine. One I'm trying to get back up:

    I don't see the connection. I'm not saying God can't go anywhere He pleases, just that He doesn't go everywhere simultaneiuosly. Also, having to be present at a certain location in order to control events is a HUMAN limitation: Luke 7:1-10
    1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
    He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
    9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.


    Don't Jehovah's witnesses also believe God's name is Jehovah... yes indeed they do harp on that point. I once started a debate with one, then he had me look something up in his Bible partaining to the usage of the name Jehovah. I had to laugh. They had replaced every instance of the word God with Jehovah. It was hilarious. What difference does it make what name I call God by, Savior, Jehovah Jira, my provider, Lord, Master, Redeemer, Lion of Judah, the Great I Am or even Bob, so long as I know who He is, what He's done?

    But moreover, the Jewish name for God was indeed, Jehovah. So agreeing with Jehovahs witnesses does not mean I am wrong. Did you know Catholics think lieing is bad... so do I. Did you know Jews think murder is wrong? Yep, I agree, it is. Did you know Satan believes there is a God? He believes and he shudders. And so he should, because he's right, there is a God and that God will judge him.
     
    #17 Darren, Apr 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2008
  18. webdog

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    Like the Trinity? Gravity? Quantum physics?

    The OP sounds like a potato bug trying to explain what a human is. Face it, there is only ONE person who CAN be omnipresent, and that is God. If God CAN'T be omnipresent, He's not God. Seems simple enough to me.
     
  19. Palatka51

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    Does anyone else feel like I do? Darren, you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder. What's the deal with the attitude?
     
  20. Palatka51

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    God's throne, all of heaven, and His footstool, the whole earth can not contain Him. Thus He is Omnipresent.
     

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