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Omniscience

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Apr 13, 2011.

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  1. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I'm not blaming God. My example is fine and I'm not changing the meaning of the word. You are limiting the meaning to one definition. Words have multiple meanings.
    If there is something that happens, and I could stop it and don't, then in that sense, I have allowed the event to happen by not stopping it. Nobody is blaming God(or at least nobody should be). I'm responsible for my sin, not God.

    Yes, God allowed by to sin. Not gave me permission to sin, but permitted it to happen by not stopping it.
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Then let's be very clear. You do not believe what the Church has believed for nearly two thousand years. You are not an orthodox Christian.

    You cannot FIND a reputable systematic theology in church history that is not Pinnock-like HERESY to agree with your position.

    Let's be VERY clear. You do NOT at ALL even REMOTELY believe in omniscience as Christians have defined it for CENTURIES.

    Are you comfortable with that?

    Does that concern you at all?

    Or are you so arrogant that what the Church has believed for two thousand years has no bearing on you?
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    So you are not orthodox. You have no history for your beliefs concerning omniscience outside of heretics.

    Are you comfortable that only HERETICS in history have believed what you believe?
     
  4. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Omniscience: The property of knowing everything. The traditional philosophical problem is to reconcile the orthodox idea that God knows everything with the absence of predetermination, or in other words with the idea that whereas the past is fixed the future remains somehow ‘open’. To many thinkers it has seemed that if God knows, already, what will happen tomorrow, then human free will and responsibility must be a mere sham.

    Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy:



    Omniscience : The attribute that denotes God knowing all things. Omniscience means that all events are present to the divine mind; that is, God has direct cognition of everything in creation.

    Getz, Stanley J., David Guretzki and Cherith Fee Nordling, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Inter-Varsity Press, Downers Grove, Illinois, p. 86
     
    #64 Crabtownboy, Apr 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2011
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This was the same kind of thinking that gave us the beliefs of Schliermacher and company which introduced higher criticism and liberalism into the churches.

    They argued that God is infinite and cannot be understood by reason so we should not try. That single presupposition led to the spiritual DEATH of the continent of Europe.

    Appeal to mystery is fine and good. But what IS revealed is NOT a mystery. When you appeal to mystery when the Bible is unambiguous you open the door for liberalism.

    The Bible is not unclear about the fact that God has always known all there is to know about everything. This is why the orthodox Christian church INCLUDING ARMINIANS have always fully accepted that God is TRULY omniscient.

    If you do not then you are not orthodox. Are you comfortable with that?

    This is so simple. It is anthropomorphic language. We cannot understand how God does everything that he does. On those things that we cannot grasp God uses anthropomorphic language.

    Does God breathe? Of course not! But the best way what he did to Adam can be described so that we can get a grasp on it is to say that God BREATHED into his nostrils. God does not have a mouth or lungs nor does he inhale or exhale because he has no body.

    God does not make choices but there is no better way for us to understand what he is doing so he employs the use of anthropomorphic terminology.

    You ought to know this as smart as I think you are.

    I expect better from you.
     
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    And you do not believe it, right?

    See, Crabtown, the problem with you and good folks like you is that you think that your position is historical. You think Calvinism is fringe.

    The fact is that people like you have abandoned 2,000 years of Church history and Orthodox Theology which ALL CHRISTIANS held to and you have adopted a new, unorthodox, nameless theology which makes YOU the fringe.

    This ought to be a problem for you, but it is not because you do not see the value of the History of the Christian Church and what hundreds of millions of orthodox Christians have worked out and held to for hundreds and hundreds of years.
     
  7. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Did I say I did not believe it? I may not believe it in the same way as you. Also I have said it depends on how you view time ... and to my knowledge the Bible never defines time.

    I respectfully disagree. Occasionally an orthodox priest visits the library here. If I have the opportunity I will ask him how he and the Orthodox Church views Calvinism.

    It seems to me if the Orthodox church held his beliefs he would not have been opposed by Rome. I don't know how the Eastern Orthodox view him. Good research topic. I will do some research and post a thread on this the topic of Calvin and Orthodox Church beliefs.

    When you say orthodox my guess is that you do not mean the Orthodox church but "orthodox" folks who agree with you. :laugh: [Please, this was gentle humor and no attempt to insult.]

    It is no problem for me as you and others have convinced me that Calvin, at least as you and others have described it is not Biblical. So, you have moved me from a neutral position to one that is no longer neutral.

    Show me in Christ's teachings and example from his dealings with others where he viewed some as elect and others as damned by God. Certainly he did not show such an attitude with the woman at the well, the woman taken in adultery, the rich young ruler, not in any of his parables.

    Can you imagine him in his sermon on the mount saying, "Well, folk some of you are of the elect, not because of anything you have done or believed and some of you are not of the elect and it has nothing to do with what you have done or believed. It was God who decided before the creation that you are not to live with him in paradise regardless of your beliefs or actions."
     
    #67 Crabtownboy, Apr 14, 2011
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  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It's very simple Crabtown.

    You either believe...

    God has always known all there is to ever know about everything...

    Or you do not.


    The Eastern or Greek Orthodox Church has NOTHING to do with historical Christian orthodoxy. They happen to be orthodox in most of their beliefs but "Orthodox" is just a title for them.

    Christian Orthodoxy has absolutely NOTHING to do with how close one is to the Greek or Eastern Orthodox Church.

    The fact that you do not know this is proof enough that you are not educated on these matters enough to debate them.

    If you do not know these things you ought to keep your opinions to yourself.

    Dangerous people are people who are ignorant and do not care.

    Today we celebrate or mourn the 105th anniversary of the Azusa Street Revival which gave us Pentecostalism.

    It began under the leadership of an uneducated preacher named William Seymour. From thence came all KINDS of heresy like Oneness Pentecostalism.

    God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge..."

    If you don't know these things, for heaven's sake keep quiet until you become better educated!





    That would CERTAINLY not be hard to do if it were worth the time.
     
  9. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Do you mean as long as my belief is the same are yours?




    I am sure they would find it interesting to learn this fact. Me thinks they might disagree with you just a tab on this.

    This is one of the aspects of Calvinist's I find most interesting ... insult or try to insult those who do not agree with me.

    Actually I find this an admission that you realize your argument is weak.

    Have I ever said that I am Pentecostal or a follower of "oneness?"

    By this I assume you mean until I agree with you. Would you like to compare degrees? :laugh:

    I also find it interesting that Calvinist seemingly never quote Christ or show examples of his life to support their un-biblical beliefs. Now if this is not hard to do, as you state above, please do so and educate us poor uneducated folk. It would be most appreciated.

    Again I take your attempted insult as a sign of the weakness of your argument ... and your non-answer as another sign that your argument is not Christ centered.
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    What I meant could not have been clearer.

    You really don't know what Historical Christian Orthodoxy is, do you?

    Yet you lack the humility to stop posting because what you post might be promoting error since you do not have the education to know if you are right or not.

    This is a huge problem in this culture.

    I am not insulting you. I am pleading with you to get some theological training before you post things that the church has never believed.

    Sad.


    See, I did not say you were Pentecostal. That you cannot see that is further proof that you ought to stop posting things that are over your head.

    The rules here let anybody post whatever they want and I support those rules. I am not talking about those rules. I am talking about being intellectually honest and admitting that you do not even know what Historical Christian Orthodoxy is and therefore you have no business promoting poorly based, possibly dangerous beliefs for thousands to read.

    I'll tell you what I AM interested in knowing. Do you have ANY theological training whatsoever? If so, from where?

    I am working on my degree now. I have attended two colleges: Southeastern Free Will Baptist College and I am now attending Liberty University.



    That's bull. I quote Him all the time.

    If only you had the humility for this remark to be sincere.

    Once again, it is not an insult. Take it however you will. That's what you are determined to do anyway. But what it REALLY is is a plea for you to consider that you are on the fringe because you do not know what you are talking about and you are dangerous because you do not CARE that you do not know what you are talking about.
     
  11. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    So educate me. In you opinion what is Historical Christian Orthodoxy?

    Again, so educated us poor folk. Yes, I am being sincere.



    If I directed the same type of reply to you ... you mean you would not see them as at least an attempt to insult?


    They why bring up the "holiday?"


    Again, please educate me.



    Life-long Baptist ... traditional not the modern folk who are no longer Baptist and lots of reading. No seminary training.

    I know nothing about Southeastern Free Will Baptist College. I am familiar with Liberty.





    So show me in his dealings with people, in his Sermon on the Mout and/or his parables where he shows there is an elect and the non-elect.

    I always ask for information sincerely. I spent my life gathering information for others and for myself. That is how I made a living.


    So educate me ... but expect sincere questions.
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I will be glad to offer what little help I can. But I will require two things. If these two things are not submitted then I will know that you are not sincere.

    #1. Do not post publicly on these matters until we are finished. If you are admitting that you do not know these things then you should be willing to not post on them for potentially thousands to read.

    #2. We do it in the pm and we do it for two weeks.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    How does God become less God, or give up His attributes? Also, dying doesn't mean He didn't exist, hence He did not become un-eternal. Finite beings cannot fully comprehend what is fully entailed within omniscience. Every vote on this poll is mere speculation as omniscience (like omnipresence and omnipotence) to the human mind is a mytery.
     
  14. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    It's not a mystery. The Bible is very clear that God knows everything. Jesus died, God cannot die. Jesus walked around on this earth(singular location) God is omnipresent. Jesus was human, God is spirit. He wasn't any less God. I never said he was. He didn't "give up" his attributes but didn't hold on to them by humbling himself. You say that Jesus as the God man is confusing and a mystery. True, so then don't use that mystery to be an excuse to ignore clear biblical teaching.

    It's not speculation nor a mystery. God is omniscient.
    1 John 3:19-20
    Job 37:16
    Psalms 147:5
    Proverbs 15:3
    Acts 15:18

    The only verse you have to deny the biblical truth of the omniscience of God is Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

    Unless the Son and the Father are not both God, then with the Father knowing, God knows. Still have God knowing everything. As I agreed, it is a mystery between the Father and Son, but it's not a mystery of God knowing everything.


    I'm really shocked that there are baptists here denying truths like the omniscience of God.
     
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    How come some of you that argue that God doesn't know everything haven't voted in the poll? Ashamed of your beliefs? I respect Freeatlast for voting the way he did. I of course disagree, but at least he had the courage to stand up and say what he believes.
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...and now we are fight back to you separating Christ's humanity from His deity. How many times must you be told you cannot do this?! The hypostatic union IS A MYSTERY. Christ's humanity and deity cannot be separated! This error started in the early church and is true today, I guess. Sad.
    I've repeatedly maintained omniscience is a trait only God can possess.
    Who ever said that was the only one? There are numerous verses with God dealing with man within time in a manner we do not understand including the Hezekiah account and what God said in Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."
    Didn't Christ say while on Earth that He was in the Father and the Father in Him? Separate Christ's humanity and divinity with that one...
    Strawman as nobody has denied it. I'm shocked there are baptists that think they can truly understand what omniscience entails with our feeble minds.
     
    #76 webdog, Apr 14, 2011
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  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Did you not see where I stated there should be a third view? The poll is a false dichotomy steered to gain a particular response. Anyone can see this.
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    An allowance is permission.
    MB
     
  19. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I just quoted Scripture. Deal with it. Did Jesus die? YES. Can God die? NO. Is Jesus Human? YES. Is God Human? NO. Jesus was fully God and fully man. 100% both. Phil 2:8-9. Read the passage. Don't tell me about early church errors, just read the passage.


    Then what are you arguing with me for then? and please vote that way in the poll if you really mean that.

    good passage about God not being the author of sin btw...

    So the Father died on the cross? Did Jesus Human die for God? Was God dead for 3 days? Jesus' human body was dead for three days.

    Van and winman are two that have. Freeatlast has and voted that way in the poll. Not a straw man. Not sure why you even said it was.
    Never said I understand it, just understand it's true.
     
    #79 jbh28, Apr 14, 2011
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  20. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    What's the third view? Either he does or he doesn't.
     
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