On Bibles

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Ryan.Samples, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Ryan.Samples

    Ryan.Samples
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    In an effort to move the discussion to a new thread to not clutter the original discussion on the LCMS view of NIV 2011 (http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=81149), I offer a new thread! Fun times to be had by all!*

    It seems you rejected the NIV (both or just the 2011?) and the HCSB English translations of the Bible. Someone asked you this same question, but the conversation veered off... I wanted to hear from you, so I present the question again:

    What do you consider a Bible? What are the criteria you use and which English translation meets them? Very interested to hear your thoughts here.


    *Fun times not guaranteed
     
  2. Ryan.Samples

    Ryan.Samples
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    O.R., is it super exciting to have your very own thread named after you? :)
     
  3. OldRegular

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    I am jumping up and down happy:laugh::laugh: but I thought that was contrary to Forum rules?
     
  4. OldRegular

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    I favor a word for word translation as near as practical. The NIV is advertised as a "dynamic equivalence" translation. In my opinion this approach allows the theology of the translators to be imposed more than a word for word translation. I am certain someone will assert that a word for word is not possible other than perhaps an interlinear. I am also someone will insist that the theology of the translator will creep in. That is one reason I do not like one person translations. At least with a team there can be some validation of the translation.

    I prefer the KJV. That is the Bible I am most familiar with. Over the years I purchased some new translations, perhaps with the idea that I could understand Scripture better. I did not find that to be true. As for the KJV it has been around for 400 years, and I realize there have been updates, but it has stood the test of time. After the KJV I would choose the NKJV but it is not without some problems. Next comes the original NASV followed by the ESV. [I suppose if the Third Millennium Bible did not have the Apocrypha I would warm up to it. I have had the Berkley Version for years and have read some in it but frankly don't care much for it. I really have not compared it with the KJV or any other. I also recently was given the Geneva Bible but have spent little time in it. The ASV, though very literal, is somewhat awkward to read especially for one familiar with the KJV.]

    I have avoided most of the more recent versions and can happily say I have never owned Ken Taylor's brief commentary or that little one with the stick figures [The name slips my mind.]

    On another thread I indicated I thought the KJ3 by Jay Green was extreme. When I open that version and read about "swarming swarmers" that is a little much! The translation is advertised as follows: "This is the Literal Translation of the Bible that appears in the side margins of Jay P. Green, Sr.'s best-seller, The Interlinear Hebrew-Greek-English Bible." I have the Interlinear and it appears he has done that on the basis of the limited comparison I have made. If I spent enough time in the KJ3 or the MKJV I might grow fond of it. It does have one other drawback in my opinion. It is apparently a one person translation. However one has to admire Green; he apparently taught himself the languages!

    Now for the HCSB: My statement that I did not consider it a Bible was a deliberate exaggeration but not without cause. [My statement regarding the NIV or any paraphrase, brief or not, still stands.] When I learned that the Southern Baptists were sponsoring a new translation I was really looking forward to something in the order of the NASB except better. Needless to say it is a disappointment. Thinking of the HCSB I am reminded of Volume 1 of the Baptist Commentary that came out many years ago.

    I have stated elsewhere that I believe in the plenary verbal inspiration of Scripture, I still do. Words are important. Therefore, for a translation to be considered a legitimate Bible it must be as true to the available manuscripts as humanly possible. Sadly at the present time it appears that the many translations/versions appearing are simply a way to enrich folks, not to present the Word of God.
     
  5. Tater77

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    I can fully understand and respect a preference for a literal translation. I lean that way myself but I understand that sometimes one has to compromise literalness to be accurate. The original languages have phrases that sound weird in modern English if translated literally. Like the KJV uses reins/bowels in the OT where modern translations identify this with your "heart" referring to your seat of emotion.
     
  6. Logos1560

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    What difference would having a team of translators make if the team had no actual true religious liberty and they were all required to hold the same official state church positions? If the team was actually under the authority of one man such as an archbishop, could not that one person overrule any divisions in opinion in the team? How would a team ruled over by one man give more validation to a translation than if the translation was made by one man?

    By the way, the KJV could be considered mainly the work of one person [William Tyndale] especially in the New Testament. It is suggested or claimed that 70 to 90% of the KJV's New Testament comes from William Tyndale.

    By the way, there were believers in the 1600's including Congregationalists and Baptists that maintained that the theology or bias of the Church of England translators of the KJV did creep into the 1611 KJV.
     
  7. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    Geneva Bible

    Much of the Geneva Bible is found in the KJV, but it does have some interesting differences.

    Gerald Hammond maintained that “the Geneva Bible, not the Bishops’ Bible, became the foundation of the Authorized Version” (Making of the English Bible, p. 144). Blackford Condit asserted that the Geneva Bible “makes the Authorized version what it is now” (History, p. 265). Leland Ryken maintained that the Geneva Bible “contributed more than any other version to the King James Bible of 1611” (Worldly Saints, p. 138). Butterworth wrote: “In the lineage of the King James Bible this volume [the Geneva Bible] is by all means the most important single volume” (Literary Lineage, p. 163). David Allen wrote: “The heavy dependence of the King James Bible upon the Geneva Bible demonstrates its superior excellence by providing the King James’s men with more material than any other single source” (Jewel in the King’s Crown, p. 59). The Cambridge History of the Bible observed that the “Geneva contributed clarity and precision” to the KJV (Vol. 3, p. 167). H. Wheeler Robinson maintained that in the KJV “sometimes the Geneva text and the Geneva margin is taken over intact, sometimes the text becomes the margin and the margin the text” (Bible in its Ancient and English Versions, p. 206).

    In a number of places, the Geneva Bible could be considered better or more accurate than the KJV when compared to the same preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

    I have also found many places where the NKJV differs some from the KJV that it is agreement with the Geneva Bible.

    Here are a few examples from two Old Testament books.

    Ezra 1:2 commanded (Geneva, NKJV) charged (KJV)
    Ezra 1:6 besides all (Geneva, NKJV) beside all (KJV)
    Ezra 2:1 to Jerusalem (Geneva, NKJV) unto Jerusalem (KJV)
    Ezra 2:42 The sons (Geneva, NKJV) The children (KJV)
    Ezra 2:43 sons of Ziha (Geneva, NKJV) children of Ziha (KJV)
    Ezra 2:44 sons of Keros (Geneva, NKJV) children of Keros (KJV)
    Ezra 2:46 sons of Hagab (Geneva, NKJV) children of Hagab (KJV)
    Ezra 2:61 sons of the priests (Geneva, NKJV) children of the priests (KJV)
    Ezra 4:2 we have sacrificed (Geneva, NKJV) we do sacrifice (KJV)
    Ezra 4:13 built (Geneva, NKJV) builded (KJV)
    Ezra 4:21 built (Geneva, NKJV) builded (KJV)
    Ezra 7:6 Ezra came up (Geneva, NKJV) Ezra went up (KJV)
    Ezra 7:24 upon any (Geneva) touching any (KJV) on any (NKJV)
    Ezra 8:17 I gave them commandment (Geneva) I sent them with commandment (KJV) I gave them a command (NKJV)
    Ezra 8:30 received (Geneva, NKJV) took (KJV)
    Ezra 8:36 beyond the River (Geneva, NKJV) on this side the river (KJV)
    Neh. 4:3 was beside him (Geneva, NKJV) was by him (KJV)
    Neh. 5:3 famine (Geneva, NKJV) dearth (KJV)
    Neh. 5:8 according to (Geneva, NKJV) after (KJV)
    Neh. 5:19 Remember me (Geneva, NKJV) Think upon me (KJV)
    Neh. 6:14 remember (Geneva, NKJV) think (KJV)
    Neh. 7:8 sons of Parosh (Geneva, NKJV) children of Parosh (KJV)
    Neh. 7:10 sons of Arah (Geneva, NKJV) children of Arah (KJV)
    Neh. 7:16 sons of Bebai (Geneva, NKJV) children of Bebai (KJV)
    Neh. 7:59 sons of Amon (Geneva, NKJV) children of Amon (KJV)
    Neh. 8:15 bring olive branches (Geneva, NKJV) fetch olive branches (KJV)
    Neh. 9:12 with a pillar of fire (Geneva, NKJV) by a pillar of fire (KJV)
    Neh. 9:20 Spirit (Geneva, NKJV) spirit (KJV)
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon
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    No,it is is not. You are wrong.

    The making of the NIV was a team effort.


    Oh,you lied. Maintaining your silence until now that the HCSB is not a Bible whereas it actually is a Bible afterall. No exaggeration. Simple falsehood.

    Continuing your ill-informed stance. Or will you chage your mind in the future and say it was merely an exaggeration?

    I want you to read the 17th chapter of John in the 2011 NIV and tell us if you think it's paraphrase or more formerly equivalent.


    Specifically why was it a disappointment for you?

    There you go again. How many other versions are you consigning to the non-Bible pile? Again,it's perfectly okay to say you are just making it up along the way and that you really don't know.
     
    #8 Rippon, Sep 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2012
  9. ktn4eg

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    It's my understanding (haven't yet had time to research any primary sources that could provide documentation) that the main reason King James I "Authorized" a new version (as opposed to a "brand new translation") of the Bible was because of the anti-royality ["kingly'] slant of many of the comments that existed in the Geneva Bible.

    One needs to recall WHY it's called the Geneva Bible in the first place.

    King James I of England was also known as King James VI of Scotland (Back then Scotland and England were two completely independent nations --- which was a result of the Scots' defeat of the English at the Battle of Bannockburn in the 1300's.)

    Queen Mary (Tudor) I of England, the eldest child of King Henry (Tudor) VIII, and Henry's 1st wife, Catherine (of Aragon--a region of Spain) who was the daughter of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain (Remember them, Isabella prevailed upon her husband Ferdinand to subsize the Italian-born [Genoa] Columbus in 1492?). Both F & I were fervent Roman Catholics. They negotiated with Henry (Tudor) VII to marry their Catholic daughter Catherine to H7's oldest son.

    Who was H7th's oldest son? Prince ARTHUR.

    HOWEVER, Arthur died before (or so it's been claimed) he & Cathy "consumated" their marriage. SO, the RC Pope Paul III granted H7th's 2d oldest son a special "dispensation," based on the OT practice of lerivate marriage. H7th's 2d oldest son was the future H8. So the Spanish Cathy of A was married to the future H8 of England.

    Cathy's "problem" was that she bore no son to H8, only a daughter--Mary (in 1516). H8 had to go through another wife to finally produce a son, Edward, who was born in 1537 and (probably) suffered from what we now call TB.

    H8 died in 1547, leaving 10 YO Edward (Tudor) to become the next king, (Eddy I). Eddy I died about 5 yrs later (aged c. 15).

    SO, the next person to occupy the English throne was, you guessed it, the RC Mary (Tudor) I.

    Prior to this Mary (Tudor) left England to live back in the land of her birth, Spain. During that time she married the man who would later become King Philip II of Spain (He's the one who commissioned the Spanish Armada to set sail to invade England in the 1580's.)

    THEREFORE, what was nominally "Protestant (i.e., the "Church" of England) England, was again back in RC control under the reign of RC Mary (Tudor)I and her husband (the soon-to-be King Philip II of Spain).

    SO, what were the nominally "Protestant" advisors to the late Eddy I to do now? Well, they could remain in England and face death by being burned at the stake (which a handful actually did),

    OR they could find refuge elsewhere on the European mainland---which several of their leaders did. Some merely sailed across the English Channel, but then they found themselves in the "Spanish" Netherlands, which didn't want them,

    OR they could go to a city that was nominally under the control of the French-born John CALVIN--the Swiss city of Geneva.

    There, these "nominally Protestant" (They still held to such RC ideas such as the SACRAMENT of Baptism.) reformers (i.e., anti-Pope & anti-King) got together and produced a brand-new translation that was named after the city in which it was translated and published--GENEVA.

    Now, even we who call ourselves Baptists, would have to agree that many (if not must) of the kings of both the northern kingdom of Israel as well as the southern kingdom of Judah were not always as Godly as one would have wished them to be. And that, my friends, provided plenty of ammo for these exiled Englishmen to point out what the average Joe could expect under ANY king (or queen [EX: Ahab & Jezebel]).

    OK, so why was King Jimmy I so glad to have a newer Version (not necessarily a new TRANSLATION) of the Bible?

    Well, Jimmy's mama was MARY (Stuard), better known as Mary, Queen of Scots.

    SHE and QUEEN MARY (Tudor) I of England were distantly related (2d or 3d cousins). Neither of which cared for the other.

    Now, Mary (Tudor) I of England died in 1558.

    She died of, shall we say, "questionable" reasons. The RC's contend that she was secretly poisoned by an agent who was financed by an advisor to Mary (Stuard), Queen of Scots.

    When Queen Elizabeth (Tudor) I of England died in 1603, she was still (or so they claim) a virgin (Hence the reason why we call it the Commonwealth of Virginia!) because she was never (offically) married.

    So, who now had the most valid claim to the English throne? THAT'S RIGHT, King Jimmy (Stuard) 6 of Scotland, son of Mary (Stuard), Queen of Scots'!!!

    That, my fellow classmates, will of course be on Monday's essay test!

    (Who needs soap operas when you got the real stuff?) :thumbsup:
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Below are the views of two people who believe the NIV is a "dynamic equivalence" translation. That makes three!

    I have highlighted certain parts!

    http://www.dtl.org/versions/article/translation.htm

    ***************************************************************
    http://www.wisereader.com/2010/09/niv-esv-struggling-with-two-views-of-equivalence/

    *****************************************************************
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Here is a fourth!

    http://www.christistheway.com/2003/a03a10ba.html

     
    #11 OldRegular, Sep 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2012
  12. OldRegular

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    I must say "ktn4eg" that you have an excellent memory
     
  13. Amy.G

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    WOW!!! That only provides further truth that the English Bible is a miracle of God, having come forth from adulterers, back stabbers, murderers, and basically the bottom of the barrel of humanity.

    :godisgood:
     
  14. OldRegular

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    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paraphrase?s=t
    ******************************************************************
    http://thesaurus.com/browse/paraphr...sociopath definition&__utmv=-&__utmk=77014165

     
  15. Rippon

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    You have just proved that you have no idea what you are taliking about. For a while now you have insisted that the NIV is a paraphrase. Now you say it's a dynamic equivalent version. Please make up your mind. It's all over the place.
     
    #15 Rippon, Sep 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2012
  16. OldRegular

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    I said the NIV is a brief paraphrase. I show the meaning of paraphrase above as: a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness.

    The preface of the NIV states:
    Keith Sharp [post #11] states of the above:

    A brief paraphrase would then be a brief restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness.

    It appears that the term Brief Paraphrase is very similar to Dynamic Equivalence.:laugh::laugh:

    ********************************************************

    You said that the NIV was not a "dynamic equivalence" translation. You are obviously wrong but I don't use ever opportunity to call you are a liar!

    ************************************************************

    I still prefer the term Brief Paraphrase when speaking of the NIV [any version].
     
  17. Rippon

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    Well now,you are finally defining your terms even though the term with your definition doen't aply to the NIV.




    Prefer away and be wrong all along. You are unclear with your last two words. Any version is a brief paraphrase in your estimation?!
     
  18. OldRegular

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    I have shown clearly above that the term Brief Paraphrase is similar to the term Dynamic Equivalence. You choose to accept neither as applicable to the NIV. That is fine with me Rippon. If you choose to dilute the Word of God then feel free to do so.

    However, for years Rippon you have become highly offended when anyone questioned the NIV. It appears that you have problems, perhaps feelings of insecurity! Of course sometimes that feeling is camouflaged by an air of intellectual superiority, even arrogance. Or could it be that you just have a guilt complex?
     
  19. OldRegular

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    An addendum to the above post:

    If you cannot understand Elizabethan English, Rippon, there are several good translations available that are more true to the Word of God than the NIV. I would be happy to suggest some if you desire but in respect to your sensitivity I will not do so unless you make a request.
     
  20. ktn4eg

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    It helps if you majored in the history of Tudor & Stuard England in grad school as I did way back in the late 1970's - early 1980's.

    My MA was from Austin Peay State University in Clarksville, TN (1981)

    Most folks don't know this about TN Gov Austin Peay (who was from Clarksville, & [so far at least] was the ONLY TN Gov to DIE while in office), but he was the TN Gov who signed into law the "Anti-Evolution" Bill that was later the basis of the so-called Scopes' "Monkey" Trial.

    I read what Gov. Peay said about the "dangers to America's MORAL and SOCIAL values that this 'unproven' and 'untested' so-called "'Theory' of 'Godless' (Gov. Peay's words) and 'proven science-denying' 'Theory' called 'Evolution' IS" when he submitted in writing this Bill that had passed both houses with SOLID DEMOCRAT majority SUPPORT (only the REPUBLICAN minority OPPOSED IT) ["Things" sure have changed from the 1920's, haven't they?!!? :tear:].

    AND who would have guessed that those words from Gov. Austin Peay came from a man who was a life-long (not Baptist, but) member of the Methodist Church [and proud of it, I might add!]?

    (BTW, the State of TN actually WON that State Supreme Court case!!
    AND, just who was this John T. Scopes who LOST it?

    Well, he wasn't even a biology teacher at all!

    He was merely a part-time (w/ no biology background whatsoever) "volunteer substitute" that the ACLU paid his court costs just so that the ACLU could "Prove" that what we'd now probably call "Intelligent Design" (since the TN Constitution PROHIBITED citing the Bible as a "source" document in any so-called SCIENCE classes in TN public schools---An Amendent that had passed due to the fact that it was introduced when the GOP held both the governorship & solid majorities in both houses of its legislature--due mainly to the last vestiges of Reconstruction period in the South.)

    Yeah, gutta watch out for them there Bible hating Republicans! :smilewinkgrin:

    (Another BTW: I always went to the bathroom just a couple minutes before the cheerleaders at my grad school alma mater would start yelling APSU's "Fight ON Cheer" "Let's GO PEAY!!!")
     

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