On Foreknowledge and Foreordaining

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 25, 2016.

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Does God's foreknowledge always equate/lead to or result from foreordaining?

  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  3. I'm not sure

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  1. rigz

    rigz
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    Came across some puzzling remarks from F Leroy Forlines and I need some input on them

    What God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain..........Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined.

    In short, what God foreknows is;
    (a) fixed,
    (b) certain and,
    (c) predetermined.
    WHO fixed, made certain and predetermined? God of course.

    Now, since God foreknows everything, it then follows that everything is fixed, certain and predetermined.
     
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  2. rigz

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    Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)
    And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin
    .

    We have another perfect example of men doing something God never commanded nor entertained in His mind.

    Did God foreknow it?
    Did God foreordain it?


    PS
    the book is by Boettner Loraine and not Leroy Forlines
     
    #2 rigz, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  3. Deacon

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    A curious incident is recorded in 1 Samuel 23:1-13 where David asks for God's guidance regarding a situation. God says something will happen and David reacts according to the information. The result is the event doesn't happen.

    Foreknowledge doesn't necessate divine predestination.

    Rob
     
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  4. rigz

    rigz
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    I agree with you.
    While foreordaining necessarily imply foreknowledge, foreknowlege does not automatically imply foreordaining.

    God can and He does foreknow events without actively directly or indirectly causing them. I can think of Adam naming animals. I doubt any name surprised them, but He never moved Adam to imagine the names; that was wholly down to Adam's freewill. So God foreknows both what He foreordains as well as contigencies.

    We can even go back further to the fall. Did God foreknow that Adam would fall? Of course He did. But does that mean that He predetermined or fixed it? There are those who insist that He did, which makes Him the Author of sin. Absurdity.

    We need to settle in our spirits that foreknowledge is not necessarily indicative of causation (foreordination).
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    rigz,

    wrong name

    You not only got the name wrong, but you butchered the quote seeking to change the meaning....here is the original quote, with the part you edited out;
    The Arminian objection against foreordination bears with equal force against the foreknowledge of God. What God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain.
     
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  6. Iconoclast

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    This is an example of you denying the biblical God once again.
     
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  7. rigz

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    The question is, did God foreordain that the subjects of this verse should rebel against Him and do something God NEVER thought of?
     
  8. rigz

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    Only the blind can miss the correction I did in the next post.

    I corrected it ere before you thought to peep here. Your correction is highly welcome but utterly unnecessary. :)

    We need comprehension classes here. He is not presenting Arminian view but Calvinism view that foreknowledge necessarily stems from foreordination.

    To prove this, I'd prescribe Institutes for you...all of it especially on Predestination, but I will be kind enough to quote some sections. I'm that niceWink

    Here we go
    "Not all men are created with a similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestinated either to life or death." (Institutes, Book 3.23.)

    So God foreordains and or predestines some to damnation and others to eternal life. But our question is, what is foreordination?

    Here;
    If God merely foresaw human events, and did not arrange and dispose of them as his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment." (Institutes, Book 3.23.6)

    So foreknowledge is not simply foreseeing events but also
    1. Arranging them
    2. Disposing of them as his pleasure
    3. Foreseeing/foreknowledge is only possibly by decree( predestination)
     
  9. Deacon

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    A couple of people dislike and disagree with my post.
    Without a written reply all they seem to disagree with is the bible, over their own theological system.
    ...but I've suspected that all along.
    Rob
     
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  10. Internet Theologian

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    deacon,

    Get over it my friend. No one who disliked your post, disagreed with the bible, nor did it 'seem' that way. I'll take a stab at it - 'they' probably disliked your misusage and misapplication of the text, and your ensuing thoughts.

    Yep. That's it right there. :)
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    Maybe they disliked seeing someone deny God's revealed attributes in favor of their own lack of understanding and attempt to denigrate the truth.
     
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  12. Deacon

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    Seem like you can't explain it within your theological system.
    Insults work better for you.

    Rob
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Look up the word anthropomorphic language before you go off the rails. Do you think there is anything that our ALL KNOWING God does not know????? Do you think anything can surprise God?
     
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  14. Internet Theologian

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    When man is exalted, God is dethroned or at the least His attributes and eternal power and immutability are called into question.

    When one believes in a truncated gospel wherein there is room for the alleged believer to no longer believe, live in practice of sin, deny the Gospel and abandon the truth and teachings of Christ, 2 John 1:1ff and still is told to fully expect heaven then any sort of false teachings will ensue.

    It becomes all about man, free will, synergism, personal achievements, having a form of godliness, lovers of self, haughty, high-minded, and etc 2 Timothy 3:1ff.
     
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  15. Internet Theologian

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    This is a failure of 2 Timothy 2:15 yet again. Many cannot see that dogma of the Scriptures interprets other Scriptures that seem to go against certain dogmas. In this case it is against the eternal attributes of God that are non-negotiable. This is why persons get themselves into trouble misinterpreting Scripture, and doing so through a lens of their own hand me down theologies and traditions.
     
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  16. Deacon

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    There, that wasn't so hard.
    Better to explain your disagreement than to simply post that you do, that's lazy and disagreeable.

    Of course I disagree with your viewpoint and strange erronous charges.

    "... man is exalted, ... God dethroned, His attributes and eternal power and immutability ... called into question, truncated gospel, room for the alleged believer to no longer believe, live in practice of sin, deny the Gospel and abandon the truth and teachings of Christ, 2 John 1:1ff and still is told to fully expect heaven then any sort of false teachings will ensue."

    Goodness, where do you get these things from? ...oh yeah, your singleminded commitment to Calvinistic doctrine.

    I get the feeling that if we were living in the past age you would be casting the first stone and lighting the first faggot to burn me.

    My view is that God sees the foreseeable. He is all-knowing, seeing even unfulfilled possibliliies.

    Rob
     
  17. BrotherJoseph

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    It is simply inconceivable to think that someone could use a text such as Jeremiah 32:35 and then remain stone silent on the verses that follow. As we read in verse 37, "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God." How beautiful to read there of the wills and the shalls of God, and to know that out of all this seeming and apparent chaos, that God had a plan worthy of Himself, and to the benefit of His people in it. Had there been no sin, had there been no sending the sons and daughters through the fire, there would have been no dispersing, there would never have been the delivering of the children of Israel into the hands of the enemies in the foreign countries about them. But since those things did transpire, and God did disperse them, He said in the same context where He said He had commanded them not, that He would deliver them, and they would be His people and He would be their God. Can we believe then, that God just determined on the whim of the moment that He would be their God, and they would be His people, or was this a portion of the everlasting covenant, revealed to them at this time?
     
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  18. BrotherJoseph

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    I assume as you interpret this verse, you believe it never came into God's mind that these things would happen, that God did not know about it, and it had to be an act of volition or free will on the part of the sinner. However, a careful examination of the text does not say that God didn't know anything about it, but rather when it says "...which I commanded them not," it was that which God said had never come into His mind. He had never intended to command them to pass their sons and their daughters through the fire. But as usual, there are people who attempt to twist the scriptures, even to their own destruction. A point worth noticing is that if something did not come into God's mind until after it came to pass, then we have the dilemma of worshiping a God who is growing in knowledge daily as events transpire. If something occurs today, and God only knows about it after it comes to pass, then God knows more today than He knew yesterday. And so God will know more tomorrow than He knows today, hence He is ever increasing in wisdom and intelligence. If your interpretation is correct God is not the same yesterday, today and forever and changes not, if His mentality or wisdom is forever changing, based upon the actions and the conduct of sinful man. And so you believe, if you holds to the silly notion that this sinful act never came into God's mind until said act was actually committed.
     
    #18 BrotherJoseph, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2016
  19. BrotherJoseph

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    Hi Brother Rob,

    When I look at the events that occur about us in time today, with all of the evil and wickedness it would seem that if God only controls good things, then He only rules a tiny amount of the affairs of His creation; the vast majority of events being outside His will. I wonder do you ever pray "Thy will be done" and then add, "God, I don't mean your decretive will, but your permissive will?" You should be praying to the creatures who have power over these events, instead of God if you believe what you say.

    I believe that all things are naked and open before. God does know all things, because God has purposed all things. I rejoice in the knowledge that our God does rule and reign both in Heaven and in earth; that He controls all events, that all things come to pass as pleases Him. I had far rather have the matters of wickedness, evil, sin, etc. in the all wise hands of our God than to have them running at random and by chance, and being brought to pass by the ingenuity, evil and wickedness of man's own devising. Far better that God control all the affairs of all mankind than to believe that some things are chance, accident, and the occurrences of whims and caprice of evil nature than to believe that God does rule and reign absolutely, perfectly, holily, and with eternal wisdom from one end of the universe to the other.
     
  20. Squire Robertsson

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    Thread closed. Started by now banned member.
     
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