On Predestination

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by rlvaughn, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    I picked up the following quote from an e-mail discussion list/group:
    What do you think?
     
  2. Primitive Baptist

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    This Primitive Baptist elder is an absolute predestinarian. I would be interested in knowing what email discussion group you retrieved this from.
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Hindsight is perfect!
     
  4. Me2

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    what exactly "is" predestinated ?

    Did God know in eternity past what color socks I would be wearing today?

    and If he didnt like my initial choice, did he "help me" change my mind?
     
  5. Hardsheller

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    All people make free choices within the parameters of their own will.

    That begs the question - Is your will ever truly FREE?

    Is your WILL ever totally unaffected and uninfluenced by your personal experiences, preferences, and physical, societal, spiritual and moral restraints?

    The answer is NO.

    In Predestination it is God who chooses a person for salvation and changes the individual's will so that person desires and ultimately "chooses" salvation.

    I don't think God predestines your sock color.
     
  6. Me2

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    is the choices within our lives known of God...

    before the foundation of the world?

    or seconds before the choice is made?


    Im under the belief that:

    all my choices have already been made and Im living out a predetermined course of activities. only known of God. and that nothing today has to be "revised" by God, as he has already done so before the foundation of the world when he first saw my life unfold before him.

    in the same line of reasoning, he declares the beginning of my life after the end has been completed.(isa 46:10)

    or that He has designed and perfected my personal life from beginning to end before it was "brought to pass"..or allowed to be unfolded in this physical world (in linear time)

    as my own individual life..as is every beings life.. as creation's very beginning to ending.

    so I say that everything was pre-planned by God before the first atom came into existence.
     
  7. Gina B

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    Yes, God knew what sock color you'd be wearing today. [​IMG] He knows how many hairs are on your head today, he knows if a sparrow is falling, why wouldn't he know what color socks you were going to pick? Whether he cared if they were blue or red ones might be a different story. ;)
    Gina
     
  8. dianetavegia

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    Me2 said:
    I knew a woman who couldn't have children. She and her husband adopted 2 black 'crack' babies. A few years later, he husband left her for a teenage girl and cocaine. Her preacher told her her husband didn't choose to leave her that God pre-ordained this into their lives so just to accept it and not ask God to change her husband.

    God is NOT the author of evil and doesn't choose for us to sin or program us to sin. Yes, God knew what socks I'd wear today but he didn't force me to wear certain socks.

    Diane
     
  9. Sularis

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    Actually yer sock example is incomplete yer not dealing with results

    See some would go yes God knew that you would wear red socks, and if that was His will you wont run across a pack of bulls in the streets
    or if it wasnt - well lets hope you can run fast

    Then others would agree God knew it in advance - and then just pick their noses - because thats all God does

    Me - Im more middle ground - I believe God had a plan already in place no matter what pair of socks you choose and that you didnt have a yes/no choice you have a multiple choice
     
  10. Yelsew

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    All people make free choices within the parameters of their own will.

    That begs the question - Is your will ever truly FREE?

    Is your WILL ever totally unaffected and uninfluenced by your personal experiences, preferences, and physical, societal, spiritual and moral restraints?

    The answer is NO.

    In Predestination it is God who chooses a person for salvation and changes the individual's will so that person desires and ultimately "chooses" salvation.

    I don't think God predestines your sock color.
    </font>[/QUOTE]If God predetermines your salvation, why would he not also choose your sock color?

    If God predetermines salvation among all of his creation, why then must we live this natural life? What purpose is served if only those whom God so predestined are to be saved? There is absolutely no reason for this life!

    If predestination is true then it is God who determines who lives this natural life, and there is no reason for procreation for the perpetuation of the species. Procreation is for most a "random" occurrence when the right conditions exist. For some it is a "forced" event. Conception can occur with any procreation. Do you really think God takes the time to cause conception in the creation that He told to procreate for the purpose of populating the earth? He established it, that is true, but does He make it happen in every instance or does he simply "allow" it to happen through non-interference in that which He established?

    Did God also predestine the following?
    It certainly looks like God did not predestine that "the sons of God", whomever they may be, should procreate with the daughters of man and thus produce beings of "super" or "mythical" strength and powers. It seems that God wearied of the antics of his "sons" because those antics were not predestined by God himself.

    ------------

    If we are "forced" to live this natural life, because God predestined all who would live this life, then the same rules must apply to all who are living this natural life, and therefore; EITHER, all mankind is destined for salvation OR the words of Jesus hold true when he said, "whosoever believeth...", thus ruling out predestination, leaving salvation up to the individual through the individual's faith condition. A condition that comes to the individual through "hearing" God's word.

    Predestination is a HOAX fostered by those who are compelled to believe in "the elect", as being only those that God himself chose for salvation. They overlook, or play down God's own words about being a respecter of no man. They fail to recognize that the Righteousness of the Old Covenant is replaced by the Faith of the New Covenant. Not that obedience has been done away with, but that Faith is the criteria for salvation and no longer is it obedience of the Law. Who gets Faith? Whosoever hears the Word and Believeth on Him who sent the Word (Jesus is the living word).

    No, you choose your own sock color...pattern and fabric are important considerations too! You also choose whether or not you believe in Jesus and the condition of your faith. The word of God compels you to believe, but it is up to you!
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Y'all;
    These post that are here right now have given me some insight as to being careful in believing which doctrine is correct. I'm no theologian but I do Love the Lord.

    This thing called predestination depresses me some what. Sort of makes me feel like what's the use of living. I really thought that I liked Calvinism. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

    If we are truly like Me2 says then God must be some jokester fooling us into believing that we are the ones who make the choices for our lives. If we have no choice at all,then we are not responsible. God has truly taken all matters in His hands and this would seem to be making God out to be the author of sin.

    Did God predestine Hitler for instance to murder over 6 million Jews for no other reason than hatred. How could this be? When God is a God of Love how could he predestine the death of a million Jews when Jews are His own people.

    I guess I'm just plain ignorant because I always thought that predestination was that we are predestined to become Christians. I guess somewhere in the back of my head I thought that this was not a destiny that had to be, but a plan that would be in place if we came to know Christ.

    I had no idea that Calvinism says some are predestined to be evil. This just seems to horrible to imagine.If some are predestined to be evil then somebody please tell me where is all the Love. Love and hatred are like water and oil they don't mix no matter what you do. How could God so love the world and hate so many in it?
    I pray that may God give me the insight to know truth.
    Mike
     
  12. Yelsew

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    How can you say that? Do you not know that some people just love to hate and some hate to love?

    Seriously,
    It matters little what persons such as Calvin and Arminius had to say, they had the same resourses that you and I have, they had the writings of the Apostles, the prophets, the kings, etc, just as we do.

    Those who align with have received the same message from Scripture that Calvin received. Those who align with Arminius have received the same message from scripture that Arminius received. There is no mystery there.

    It is those who align with Jesus Christ that receive the message that Jesus gave to mankind. Jesus' message brings Salvation to each individual who receives it, for there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved!

    Don't be deceived by the "isms" of Calvin and Arminius. Paul, the Apostle warned against aligning with mere humans including Apollos and himself. Paul pointed to Jesus as do the Apostles and the Prophets.

    Therefore, It is up to you to "study to show thyself approved..." When You study, prepare by praying that the Holy Spirit will enable your understanding of the Word of God.

    The Calvins, Arminius's, Spurgeons, Popes, etc. are all merely mortals who have done what you too, must do, and that is choose to believe and be saved, or not believe and condemn yourself (John 3:18)
     
  13. Me2

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    Simmer down now Mike,

    We do have choice as individuals.we have lattitude yet in the end God has the last word.

    predestination means that we are to be conformed to an image. the image of Christ. but alas some choose not to acheive after such goals. meaning that we have choice within our lives.

    now our lives have been determined already by our own choices as well as Gods intervening power. and all has been "completely" seen and difinitively determined before the foundation of the world was created. yet while we live today, we dont know as humans how the outcome will be, but God alone does.

    God just doesnt react as if he doesnt know what you will choose five minutes from now.. he saw your entire life in eternity past. and worked his good will into your plans then. your simply finding out now what those determinations were that God made then...before the foundation of the world.

    some think God predestines error and evil when in fact the individuals chooses these things to occur. some choose foolishness and receive the cconsequences. If God allows evil and error and foolishness to occur even if you and I choose these things to happen. Is it Gods Fault of the final outcome? did he Predestine these things to occur even though its our choices.? God does Give man lattitude to choose and works his good plans into our lives..but keep in mind. He asks us, to allow his will in our lives to become reality.

    other than initial salvation and the deposit of God seed within us. We are a vital part of Gods will changing our lives. We desire it to be So as humble servants. some even call themselves slaves.

    I for one dont know what is Good and best in my life and Hope that He has predestined as much good to occur as possible.
    wouldnt you if you could choose it.? or would that violate your free will?

    Me2
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Where did you come up with that definition of predestination?
    Predestination is predetermining who what where when and how, and why things are the way their are. It seems that in accordance with the Inspired word of God there are some things that God did not predetermine. For example the "sons of God taking the daughters of man for wives with the result being those called the "men of renown". Causing God some concern after the foundation of the world is not cool, so God shortened mans years from the 900 series of Methuselah, to a mere 120 years that modern man is having great difficulty living up to. Predetermination would have God establishing man's years at 120 year prior to the foundation of the world.

    Does predestination exist?
    Yes, there are names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
    Yes, names can be blotted from the book of life, meaning that predestination is not a sure or fixed thing, human cooperation is required for predestination to be true.
    Yes, names can be added to the book of life, when humans believe in Jesus. Therefore, predestination is not a guarantor nor is it an inhibitor.

    Is everything in God's creation predestined?
    I don't see the evidence that it is so!
     
  15. Hardsheller

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    Is this the Yelsew Revised Standard Version you're quoting from?

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [Gen 6:3] Yahweh said, `My spirit cannot be indefinitely responsible for human beings, who are only flesh; let the time allowed each be a hundred and twenty years.'
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't believe this translation captures the essence of the original Hebrew.

    As far as Predestination goes.....

    Write it out of your Bible or define it more palatably so that you can not be bothered with it when you run across it in the Scriptures. After all It's your Choice! :D
     
  16. Me2

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    God exists in absolute time.

    He can see 200 billion peoples lives for a million years of their lives simultaneously and not one second pass in absolute time. when he decided that our lives has become planned to some point, possible at the end of some future age to come.

    then he created linear time. and we human beings live out what was "planned" in eternity past. we find out what "happened" as we discovered how he interacted within our choices for our individual and collective Good.

    God lives by faith. he faithed us into being after he had planned for us to be a finished product. which is the completed "image of Christ". interestingly..thats were your bible stops its message. where We are a completed "image" and God is "all in all". or that all of mankind has been tucked into the righteous spirit of God for all eternity. does life stop for human beings. no. its only a transition from one "age to another"

    but when we discover our own existence in linear time...we're just beginning. But God has already seen and planned our lives out in absolute time..yep. Did God allow us lattitute in being a co-creator of our own destinty.
    within his will...you bet.

    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
     
  17. Yelsew

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    HardSheller, you have not put forth anything better for us to ponder.
     
  18. Hardsheller

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    Don't have to. You're not going to change and I'm not going to change. [​IMG]
     
  19. DCK

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    One problem with debates over this subject is that the combatants involved usually emphasize the side of the evidence that favors their position while minimizing, distorting or even parodying the evidence of the other side. (I'm sure I've been guilty of this myself over the years.) Rarely is there a balanced debate, especially since this is an emotional topic for many. For what it's worth, I tend more and more to an acceptance of compatibilism, the belief in both God's absolute sovereignty (there are too many biblical passages to ignore or dismiss it) and true human responsibility (also clearly taught in Scripture). That doesn't mean that both Arminianism and Calvinism are correct; that would be impossible since they contradict each other. But it doesn't matter. These are man-made systems of belief, and we are not compelled to accept either of them. What we are compelled to do is to believe in Scripture, all of it, and not only those parts that appeal to us philosophically.
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Me2; [​IMG]
    I've been reading things here in this forum for quite sometime. Then finally I decided to join. I joined to learn and I'm doing this. My Post was not about freewill. It's about your Ideas of predestination. Which are IMHO well beyond what Paul was relating to in scripture. I don't believe that men are predestined to hell and I certainly don't believe that Hitler was predestined to murder people. There is nothing in scripture that I know of that says he predestined anything other than being predestined to be conformed to His image.

    If God's word says more than this please show me. I'm willing to try to understand if it is so.Who am I to question God. On the other hand if you can't show support for your position then you should try to figure out what gave you this idea.This then would be between you and God.

    I really don't think that God cares what color socks I wear or for that matter if I wear any at all. How ever to be conformed to His image doesn't exactly mean I should wear roman sandles either. His image in my opinion is what Paul Was talking about. The image of His actions. His reputation for careing for others. The whole world for that matter don't you think? It's about being like Christ and how we may become like Him.

    If I sound judgemental I'm sorry for that I didn't intend to give that impression.

    I believe that a lady named Dianetavegia spoke of actions that were determined to be predestination by someones minister which was his reasons for a man to leave his wife. This is ridiculous. My God does not predestined someone to leave there wife and Children for another woman. What would we do if Christ Left us?

    Predestination is not about anything else than to be conformed IMO
    May God Bless you.
    Mike
     

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