On the banks of the river

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Clint Kritzer, Oct 26, 2001.

  1. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    I went with another title. If it is too much, may the moderator have mercy on me.
    In "back to our roots" I became intrigued with the Primitive Baptist whom which Mr, Weaver and Mr. Tyndale claim affiliation. New questions were already arising on their practices and progress and ,of course, the FEETwashing. This is an ordinance to which my church does not adhere. The same can be said of the holy kiss or snake handling. I am actually a little pressed to name but so many ordinances in my church, but of those that we do practice, which are shared by my bretheren in those other Baptist sects?
    Is the Doxology prevelant in other congregations? My church somehow lost the tradition of laying hands on the HEAD for ordinations. The last Deacon ordination we observed, only the senior ministers and deacons practiced this, the younger simply made contact on the shoulders or arms. I have yet to discover whether this is through ignorance or a relaxing of tradition. As you may suspect, I did not approve. I feel that the more we "progress" the further we remove ourselves from our roots. Our COMMON roots.
    I have aquired and checked out a few books about my sect, the Southern Baptist, and I will try to present their belief system, or statement of faith as it may be. I can only report of the observances of my own church. Again, I will make a call. If there are any other Southern Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Missionary Baptist, Independent Baptist, Afro-American Southern Baptist (my texts are sadly lacking in information on these bretheren), Regular Baptist, or ANY OTHER SECT that calls itself BAPTIST, I implore you to participate.
    First off a brief history of my sect. In 1838, The Vermont Baptist Association confronted the churches in the south condemning slavery. The Religious Herald refused to publish this proclamation and urged their northern brothers to refrain from their dictatorial tones.The following year, as many as 700 Baptist covened in New York city to form the American Baptist Anti-slavery Society who promptly issued a statement that they would not receive ANY members who owned or approved of slavery. A committee, Baptist in Richmond, enlisted W.B. Johnson to convene a conference of the Baptist of the slave states in Baltimore at the same time as the Triennial Convention. This man proposed that this conference give attention to the letters from the Baptist Anti-slavery Society. This conference was the immediate forerunner of the Southern Baptist Convention.
    In 1845 a slaveholder from Georgia (I do not have his name) sought appointment as a missionary to the Cherokee people. At this point the Board of the Home Missionary Society stated that tey would not appoint a slave owner as a missionary. This resulted in the Virginia Foreign Mission Society to call for a convention on May 8, 1845. 328 delegates convened in Augusta, Georgia and organized the Southern Baptist Convention.
    Now, let me say here, I do NOT condone slavery and the Exodus of God's priesthood (at that time the Jews) is evidence, to me of the Will of God for his people to be free. But in defence of my ancestors, and I fully expect a rebuttal on this, Christ never condemned slavery. The word servant appears many times in the New Testament and I believe, feel free to contradict me gentlemen, that the comnnotation of the word is "slave". I will say again, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE PRACTICE OF SLAVERY. I only mention it because of the importance it holds to the formation of my sect and the possible future relevance in this thread.
    Well, that was dry. I hope to hear from any and all of you on the formation of your own sect and we will see where this thread may go. I am so encouraged by our last thread that I foresee much possibility in this topic.

    May God bless each of you, again

    - Clint

    [ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

    [ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

    [ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  2. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Mr. Kritzer wrote:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I went with another title. If it is too much, may the moderator have mercy on me.
    In "back to our roots" I became intrigued with the Primitive Baptist whom which Mr, Weaver and Mr. Tyndale claim affiliation. New questions were already arising on their practices and progress and ,of course, the FEETwashing. This is an ordinance to which my church does not adhere. The same can be said of the holy kiss or snake handling. I am actually a little pressed to name but so many ordinances in my church, but of those that we do practice, which are shared by my bretheren in those other Baptist sects?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Some of the more old fashioned Baptists do practice footwashing. In my area we also practice laying on of hands on the head, and the holy kiss -- we don't do snake handling, and I don't know of any Baptist Church that does. But brings to mind a funny story. My mom's brother was a very popular Southern Baptist minister where I grew up in Appalachia. He travelled extensively, and he was invited to preach a revival at a church in West Virginia. It turned out to be a snake handling church, which Uncle Paul didn't know when he accepted the invitation. The church house only had one door in the front, and a pulpit in the back of the building. So, when the snakes came out, Uncle Paul, who was a huge man, crawled out the window. He said he told them if they wanted him to come back they had to build a back door to the building. :D

    I don't know of any Baptist church that practices snake handling anywhere. I think those few that do would be considered Pentecostals.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is the Doxology prevelant in other congregations? My church somehow lost the tradition of laying hands on the HEAD for ordinations. The last Deacon ordination we observed, only the senior ministers and deacons practiced this, the younger simply made contact on the shoulders or arms. I have yet to discover whether this is through ignorance or a relaxing of tradition. As you may suspect, I did not approve. I feel that the more we "progress" the further we remove ourselves from our roots. Our COMMON roots <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We do sing the Doxology on occasion, but not at every meeting.

    As for progress..... As you must already have guessed Primitive Baptists have tried, not always successfully to avoid progess. But I don't think there is much doubt in anyone's mind that our practice is closer to what was done in 1700 than any other group of Baptists. Remaining with this style of doctrine and practice has been detrimental to our numbers. But it has not been a hundrance to our spirit. So, there is a trade off by reverting or holding to a more traditional kind of worship. Is the trade off worth it -- I can only answer for me, and I must say that it is. Whether anyone else would agree, I cannot say.

    As for common roots, I am not entirely sure there is a set of common roots. There were initially two types of Baptist, General and Particular. I am weak on the practices of the early General Baptists. I suspect they are similar, but I just don't know. Anybody?

    Jeff
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    As for progress..... As you must already have guessed Primitive Baptists have tried, not always successfully to avoid progess. But I don't think there is much doubt in anyone's mind that our practice is closer to what was done in 1700 than any other group of Baptists. Remaining with this style of doctrine and practice has been detrimental to our numbers. But it has not been a hundrance to our spirit. So, there is a trade off by reverting or holding to a more traditional kind of worship. Is the trade off worth it -- I can only answer for me, and I must say that it is. Whether anyone else would agree, I cannot say.

    Brother Jeffs answer was very eye opening because to me as the church goes so goes society or is it the other way around.
    I have much more to say but will deal with this topic first. Christ said my kingdom is not of this world... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen
     
  4. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Bro. Glen.

    THanks. I think the majority of the churhes out there follow society rather than the other way around. A religious version of keeping up with the Joneses perhaps. If my memory serves, I think that Sunday schools were introduced in some types of Baptist churches as a response to the Methodists having done so first. The early Methodists and Baptists in the South at least seem to have been very competitive. I also think that many baptist groups "watered" down their doctrine to better match the Methodist way of doing things. (Now so no one thinks I am slamming Methodists, I count a lot of Methodists as friends, and this isn't about them). But early Weslyeans had a profound affect on many Baptists.

    So back to Bro, Glen's point, does the dog wag the tail or the tail wag the dog? In my way of looking at things I think the tail (society) is waging the dog (church). Comments more than welcome on this one. I am very curious as to other opinions.

    Jeff
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I found this by accident on a Primitive Baptist Church web site and thought it might be of interest to all. The reason I felt this is a comparison from a previous declaration of faith 272 years ago. Yes I agree with Brother Jeff is the tail wagging the dog? Progress is ok but if it alters doctrine it is in error.

    1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith
    A Declaration of the Faith and Practice of the Church of Christ at Horsely-down,
    under the Pastoral Care of Mr. John Gill, &c.

    Having been enabled, through divine grace, to give up ourselves to the Lord, and likewise to one another by the will of God; we account it a duty incumbent upon us to make a declaration of our faith and practice, to the honour of Christ, and the glory of his name; knowing, that as with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, so with the mouth confession is made unto salvation--our declaration is as follows:

    I. We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are the word of God, and the only rule of faith and practice.

    II. We believe that there is but one only living and true God; that there are three Persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who are equal in nature, power, and glory; and that the Son and the Holy Ghost are as truly and as properly God as the Father.

    III. We believe that, before the world began, God did elect a certain number of men unto everlasting salvation, whom he did predestinate to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, of his own free grace, and according to the good pleasure of his will: and that, in pursuance of this gracious design, he did contrive and make a covenant of grace and peace with his Son Jesus Christ, on the behalf of those persons, wherein a Saviour was appointed, and all spiritual blessings provided for them; as also that their persons, with all their grace and glory, were put into the hands of Christ, and made his care and charge.

    IV. We believe that God created the first man, Adam, after his own image, and in his likeness; an upright, holy, and innocent creature, capable of serving and glorifying him; but, he sinning, all his posterity sinned in him, and came short of the glory of God: the guilt of whose sin is imputed, and a corrupt nature derived, to all his offspring, descending from him by ordinary and natural generation: that they are by their first birth carnal and unclean, averse to all that is good, uncapable of doing any and prone to every sin; and are also by nature children of wrath, and under a sentence of condemnation, and so are subject not only to a corporal death, and involved in a moral one, commonly called spiritual, but are also liable to an eternal death, as considered in the first Adam, fallen and sinners; from all which there is no deliverance but by Christ, the second Adam.

    V. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, being set up from everlasting as the Mediator of the new covenant, and he, having engaged to be the surety of his people, did, in the fulness of time, really assume human nature, and not before, neither in whole nor in part; his human soul, being a creature, existed not from eternity, but was created and formed in his body by him that forms the spirit of man within him, when that was conceived in the womb of the virgin; and so his human nature consists of a true body and a reasonable soul; both which, together, and at once, the Son of God assumed into union with his divine Person, when made of a woman, and not before; in which nature he really suffered and died as their substitute, in their room and stead, whereby he made all that satisfaction for their sins, which the law and justice of God could require, as well as made way for all those blessings, which are needful for them both for time and eternity.

    VI. We believe that that eternal redemption which Christ has obtained, by the shedding of his blood, is special and particular, that is to say, that it was only intentionally designed for the elect of God, and sheep of Christ, who only share the special and peculiar blessings of it.

    VII. We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them; and that the full and free pardon of all their sins and transgressions, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of his grace.

    VIII. We believe that the work of regeneration, conversion, sanctification, and faith, is not an act of man's free will and power, but of the mighty, efficacious, and irresistible grace of God.

    IX. We believe that all those who are chosen by the Father, redeemed by the Son, and sanctified by the Spirit, shall certainly and finally persevere, so that not one of them shall ever perish, but shall have everlasting life.

    X. We believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust; and that Christ will come a second time to judge both quick and dead, when he will take vengeance on the wicked, and introduce his own people into his kingdom and glory, where they shall be for ever with him.

    XI. We believe that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of Christ, to be continued until his second coming; and that the former is absolutely requisite to the latter; that is to say, that those only are to be admitted into the communion of the church, and to participate of all ordinances in it, who upon profession of their faith, have been baptized by immersion, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

    XII. We also believe that singing of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, vocally, is an ordinance of the Gospel to be performed by believers; but that as to time, place, and manner, every one ought to be left to their liberty in using it.

    Now all, and each of these doctrines and ordinances, we look upon ourselves under the greatest obligations to embrace, maintain, and defend; believing it to be our duty to stand fast, in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the Gospel.

    And whereas we are very sensible, that our conversation, both in the world and in the church, ought to be as becometh the Gospel of Christ, we judge it our incumbent duty to walk in wisdom towards them that are without, to exercise a conscience void of offence towards God and men, by living soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

    And as to our regards to each other, in our church-communion, we esteem it our duty to walk with each other in all humility and brotherly love: to watch over each other's conversation; to stir up one another to love and good works; not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as we have opportunity, to worship God according to his revealed will; and, when the case requires, to warn, rebuke, and admonish one another, according to the rules of the Gospel.

    Moreover, we think ourselves obliged to sympathize with each other, in all conditions, both inward and outward, which God, in his providence, may bring us into; as also to bear with one another's weaknesses, failings, and infirmities, and particularly to pray for one another, and that the Gospel and the ordinances thereof might be blessed to the edification and comfort of each other's souls, and for the gathering in of others to Christ, besides those who are already gathered--all which duties we desire to be found in the performance of, through the gracious assistance of the Holy Spirit, whilst we both admire and adore the grace which has given us a place and a name in God's house, better than that of sons and daughters.

    Brother Glen

    [ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  6. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Good evening, Gentlemen -

    This topic has begun with some very interesting twists already. I appreciate the input once more. I will make my entry short for this evening as I need to assemble my facts.
    First of all, I have yet to find any mention in my references regarding Sunday School. I do know that in the present day, our Sunday School literature is published by a group under the administrative wing of the Southern Baptist Conference (henceforth known as the SBC. I am a two finger typist.) The SBC does not fund the publication but merely oversees it. Though I enjoy our worship service I must say that most of my scriptural knowledge and denominational attitude I learned from attending those 45 minute classes for all of my youth. I will find an answer on the beginnings of Sunday school, another topic I always just took for granted.
    Mr. Tyndale's find of the doctrine of faith, in section III also brings up a topic that may be best brought up on the Primitive thread but has intrigued me since I first heard it. The concept of predestination. I have never encountered writings on this through SBC publications but speaking as a Christian, does this allow for free-will? What of the story of Jonah and his prophecy for the Ninevite's that they averted? Has your sect still held to this belief? Looking for answers and getting more questions.

    May God bless

    - Clint
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    A few scattered remarks for now -

    1. Clint, you have mentioned ordinances here, and we discussed that some on the other thread. I went back and looked up a reference of which I was thinking. It is from The History of the Baptists by David Benedict (1848, Colby & Co. New York) on page 686: "In their laudable endeavors to carry out, to the letter, all suggestions of the New Testament as to christian duties, they discovered, in their estimation, the nine following rites, viz. : baptism - the Lord's Supper - love feasts - laying on of hands - washing feet - anointing the sick - right hand of fellowship - kiss of charity - and - devoting children." Benedict takes this from John Leland's Virginia Chronicle on p. 42. Leland's and Benedict's reference is to Separate Baptists. But at least some Regular Baptists adhered to these rites as well. Morgan Edwards, clerk of the Philadelphia Baptist Association, mentions these nine rites in his "Materials Toward a History of Baptists..." But in his book, The Customs of Primitive Churches he also adds collections for the saints, fasts, feasts, funerals, and marriages. We have also seen that the Philadelphia Association called the singing of psalms an ordinance. In my opinion, Baptists have not always been clear on what they meant by the term ordinance; nor have they doggedly held to just two ordinances. It is also my opinion, though, that even among Baptists that added many of these rites, Baptism and the Lord's Supper held a clear preeminence (with the exception of feetwashing in some churches). It is also notable that we still practice some of these other rites (Feetwashing, laying on of hands, right hand of fellowship, holy kiss, and even anointing with oil in some churches), but don't call them ordinances. As for snakehandling, this seems to be a totally Pentecostal/Holiness experience. I know of no documented case in a Baptist church.

    2. Slavery: in relation to some of our freedom discussion from the "Back to our roots" post - it occurred to me that Baptists in the South violated individual freedom, in owning men as slaves; and Baptists in the North violated church and religious freedom, in demanding that autonomous churches bow to their will. The War Between the States and slavery is a much more complicated issue than most moderns will allow.

    3. The term 'doxology' is not very prevalent among churches with whom I associate. But we do sometimes sing "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" to the tune Old Hundred. I think this is called 'Doxology' in some hymn books.

    4. Bro. Jeff, the snake handling story was a good one! Another of my opinions - I think that the Old Regular Baptists and the Primitive Baptists of Appalachia are probably the best representation of what a 1700-1800 Baptist church service would have been like. I think this is partly because of doctrine that held the old ways, and partly because of a natural isolation from much of the rest of the Baptist world. I think no other Baptists in America, no matter how determined, have so faithfully preserved the old ways of doing things. I do say this keeping in the back of my mind that even in 1700-1800, not all Baptist churches were alike. But there was not the diversity of worship and practice that now exists.

    5. Bro. Glen, thanks so much for giving us the Goat Yard Declaration of John Gill's church. I read one time that John Gill, a Particular Baptist, is the only commenter that commented on EVERY verse of the Bible in his Commentary.

    6. Finally - Sunday School had its origins in England with a gentleman named Robert Raikes. I do believe he was a Baptist, but am not positive about that. The original Sunday schools were not associated with or part of a church program. It was a secular/religious organization formed to bring a little education to the poor waif children on the streets of London. Take this with a little grain of salt, because I'm typing this from my (sometimes failing) memory. I haven't looked up the reference yet, because I CAN'T REMEMBER where to find it! And I don't remember offhand when this was adopted as a teaching type of program in Baptist churches. I would venture a guess of the early 1800's in the United States.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I found this in the pb.org web site it is from Hassells History. Brother Jeff and I are very familiar with it. Brother Jeff said he has many books and knowing Primitive Baptist as I do I know one is John Gills Expository On The Whole Bible.
    Everyone here is in luck because this work is online and the print of the original is very small but online I can make the print larger for us blind folk.

    The following articles are from Hassells Church History in the eighteenth century also you will find many other interesting facts here. Visit the pb.org web site it will be of a benefit to all. Brother Jeff can give you the history behind the writing.

    Modern Protestant Missions originated in the eighteenth century. The English "Society for Propagating the Gospel in Foreign Parts," established in 1701, devoted itself to the diligent dissemination of High-Church Episcopalianism. The Danish Government, under the influence of the German Pietist, A. H. Francke, sent out a few missionaries to India in 1705, to Lapland in 1716, and to Greenland In 1721. The Moravian Zinzendorf sent out from 1732 to 1750 "more missionaries than the combined Protestant Church in two hundred years--illiterate laymen, who were enjoined to practice rigid economy, labor with their own hands, use only spiritual means, and aim at the conversion of individuals." Thomas Coke, John Wesley's "right-hand," " the embodiment of Methodist Missionism," established in 1786 a mission among the Negroes in the West Indies. "The independent Protestant Missionary Societies formed in this century may be regarded as a substitute for the Orders of the Roman Church," says the able and accurate Schaff-Herzog Catholic Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge. The "Baptist Society for Propagating the Gospel amongst the Heathen" was formed at Kettering, England, October 2d, 1792, under the influence of Andrew Fuller, William Carey, and others, and operated in India. The "London Missionary Society" was formed in 1795, soon passed under the control of the Independents, and began work in the South Sea Islands and South Africa. The "Society for Missions to Africa, and the East" was formed in 1799 by Episcopalians.

    The modern system of Sunday Schools originated in the eighteenth century. The patriarchs, by Divine direction, taught religious truths to their own children. The prophets gave religious instruction to all, both old and young, who were prepared to receive it. Ezra and his assistants "read to all who could hear with understanding in the book of the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading" (Neh. viii.). After the Babylonian captivity, the Jews established synagogues, and religious schools in connection with them, in almost every town in Palestine. In the second century of the Christian era, Catechetical schools were established in connection with many churches to give religious instruction to the young and ignorant; and these schools were especially flourishing in the fourth and fifth centuries. In the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic ''Church" being engrossed with the wholesale "conversion" of nations by the sword, it is said that catechetical instruction was given by the so-called "heretics," the Cathari, Waldenses, Wycliffites, Bohemian Brethren, etc. In the sixteenth century the Reformers, to some extent, instituted catechetical instruction on Sundays. But Robert Raikes, of Gloucester, England, is generally admitted to have been the founder of modern Sunday Schools. In 1781 he hired teachers to instruct some poor children in Gloucester in reading and in the catechism on Sunday. His example was extensively imitated in the British Isles and the United States; and, by the end of the eighteenth century, the instruction had almost universally become gratuitous, and was said to be far superior in quality to what it was before, because now springing from pure benevolence. It is claimed by the Methodists that John Wesley, first in 1784, suggested that the instruction should be gratuitous, and also expressed the hope that Sunday Schools would become "nurseries for Christians" (See the Article on Sunday Schools in McClintock and Strong's Encyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature, vol. x., p. 21). The writer of the Article just mentioned declares that, "within the last fifty years Sunday Schools have come to be regarded as an essential branch of church action, not merely in England and America, but throughout the Protestant world whether in home or mission fields;" and he intimates, at the conclusion of his Article, that, in the Sunday School, he sees "the problem of the conversion of the world in process of solution." It thus appears that, for nearly 1,800 years of the Christian era, the church was destitute of an " essential" requisite in its work, and the problem of the conversion of the world had not begun to be solved!... Brother Glen
     
  9. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    My goodness, Gentlemen!

    You have the poor bumpkins head swimming! I will need to print out this page as it stands so far to hit the finer points, but initially I have some questions as to your postings. Mr. Vaughn cites:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ...nine following rites, viz. : baptism - the Lord's Supper - love feasts - laying on of hands - washing feet - anointing the sick - right hand of fellowship - kiss of charity - and - devoting children." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Would you be so kind as to define/describe right hand of fellowship, kiss of charity, and the implications of annointing? I was slightly surprised to hear of annointing with oil outside of the Biblical accounts and if memory serves me, these were acts performed ON Jesus, not BY Jesus. That's off the cuff, not from study. Of course, I do not doubt you. You have certainly proven yourself to be quite authorative on this genre. I will do a little checking on my end as to any history of this amongst the Southern Baptist. Also, you mentioned the love feast. I was waiting for an appropriate moment to mention in the last thread that another Baptist distinctive was that we all seem to have the knack of eating well. Who knows who I may have offended with this one. LOL
    Also, Mr. Tyndale's posting of the web site he found states:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Modern Protestant Missions originated in the eighteenth century. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    How did these missions vary in style or practice from the Biblical journeys undertaken by Paul, Mark, Phillip, Peter, and Barnabas?I would think I am safe in assuming that these ancient journey's were in nature similar in that they were to spread the Good News and establish churches.
    I am certain I have more questions and less answers but they must wait for tomorrow. I have Sunday School tomorrow at ten! Remember to set back your clocks, gentlemen.

    Goodnight, and may God bless you

    - Clint

    Incidentally, my church does observr the practice of dedicating children to this day. I, historically, am one of those babies.

    [ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  10. Rob't K. Fall

    Rob't K. Fall
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    Greetings my brothers in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I have been lurking lo these many months but tomorrow my church celebrates her 120th anniversary. On another thread, I'll tell that story.

    Hamilton Square Baptist Church of San Francisco, California was organized as a Regular Baptist Church in Feburary, 1881. She has stayed true to doctrinal and theological integrity of her founders. With that in mind here are the Baptist Distintives as outlined by the late Brother Richard Weeks, Professor of Baptist History and Polity, Maranatha Baptist Bible College, Watertown, Wisconsin with the accrosstic BRAPISS : <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Bible-the only rule for Faith and Practice<LI>Regenerate, Immersed Church membership<LI>Autonomy and Independence of the Local Church (FYI Bro. Weeks did not believe in a universal invisible church)<LI>Priesthood of the Believer<LI>Separation of Church and State<LI>Immersion of Believers and Lord's Supper only two ordinances<LI>Separation Ethical and Separation Ecclesiastical (also written S squared)[/list]

    Yours in Christ,
    Robert Fall
    Historian and Archivist
    HSBC, SF, CA
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    Clint Kritzer's question: "Would you be so kind as to define/describe right hand of fellowship, kiss of charity, and the implications of annointing?"

    I will try, first, based on my experience with these; and second, The Life and Works of Morgan Edwards by McKibbens and Smith, and published by Arno Press, New York, 1980. [hence TLAWOME]

    1. Right hand of fellowship: For the most part we use it for the reception of new members, when, after baptism, they are given the right hand of (church) fellowship. TLAWOME agrees with this. Evidently related to this is something we may do at the end of a service (sometimes called the "parting hand" or christian handshake) - at the end of a service, people will pass by and shake the preacher's hand and also shake one another's hand in the process {to clarify - this is at the front of the church during a closing song, rather than with the preacher at the back of the church after the service}. A modern variant of this (at least I think it's modern) is just sometime during the service the preacher will tell/suggest that everyone shake hands.

    2. The kiss of charity or holy kiss: in my experience this is generally a hug rather than a kiss. But according to TLAWOME, it was an actual kiss, observed at different occasions, but particularly after baptism and the love feast. {Interestingly, but a little off subject, the Six-Principle Baptists observed laying-on-of-hands AFTER a candidate had been baptized}

    3. Anointing with oil: typical Baptists who practice this base it on James 5:13ff. An elder (or elders) goes to the bedside and anoints the head a sick person with some kind of oil (usually olive). Most do not recognize any healing properties in the oil or faith-healing type miracle in the service; but see it as symbolic. According to TLAWOME, the sick person called the minister to administer the rite. The minister encouraged the person to confess any known sin; then he prayed for his forgiveness and poured oil on his head, concluding by praying for the soon healing of the sick person. Edwards himself wrote that many Baptists had "reasoned themselves out of the practice of anointing the sick for recovery, not believing that the same kind of reasoning (pursued) would lead them to discontinue every positive rite."

    I have a lot of experience with eating :eek:, but not with an actual love feast. In TLAWOME, Edwards taught this should take place in the home to promote brotherly love and relief of the poor. An address of some type and singing would accompany the service, which might also include feetwashing, and would close with the right hand of fellowship and the kiss of charity. I don't know about any Baptists doing this, but Mennonite/Amish churches have a love feast previous to their observance of the Lord's supper.

    [ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  12. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Good MORNING, gentlemen,
    First of all, welcome Mr. Hall. I believe that for this particular discussion we need as many different inputs as possible and I welcome your's. In response to your initial entry, I would like to address your footnote to your author's list: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (FYI Bro. Weeks did not believe in a universal invisible church)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Indeed, not everyone who professes to be Christian, nor everyone who says they are a church are represenative to the Will of God. I cite the 25th chapter of Matthew:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    2
    And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    3
    They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    4
    But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Not all that cry "Lord" will be accepted and the man who made your list is wise to recognize this. Please emerge from your lurkng with your enlightenment. I will further my flattery of these men and tell you that I perceive them to be noone's fools!
    Further, Mr.Vaughn, thank you for the clarifications. The shaking of the preacher's hand or the fellowship with the just baptized was another practice which I took for granted. I cannot begin to tell you what a resource you and your bretheren here on the INTERNET (of all places) have become.
    I couldn't resist a follow-up posting upon reading the responses tonight. My poor, patient wife falls asleep on the couch every night as I await the postings of my new found friends. Thanks for all of your additions.
    One final note. I address all of you as "Mister". I wonder if you find this odd. Let me clarify. I was raised in the south (South). I was raised Southern Baptist. I was educated in a private Baptist Military School. This is habit. Personally, I like the flavor it adds to our conversation. I truly am a student to you men. But despite all this, I tell the children of my church as I will tell you, feel free to call me "Clint".

    God bless you, gentlemen and goodnight.

    - Clint
     
  13. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Hi folks:

    It would appear I shouldn't have gone to sleep last night. :D

    I will try to get some of the finner points.

    1st. Predestination. Yes, Primitive Baptists do believe that before the world was, God elected a certain number to eternal life. There are other Baptists that also believe this or some variant of it as well, including some Southern Baptists -- e.g. the Founder's Group. http://www.founders.org The issue of predestination/free will has been beat to death in some other threads. I'm not trying to avoid the issue, but it does engender quite a bit of strong reaction one way or the other, and this has been a very pleasant dialogue, so.....

    2nd. On the list of nine ordinances. I think a good number of those are still practiced, at least among Primitive Baptists, though they aren't counted as ordinances any longer. E.g. "All day meeting and dinner on the grounds" = "Love feast." We Primitive Baptists also do this frequently in individual homes. The holy kiss still lives as the hug or an actual kiss on the cheek. In my church, at least twice in every service, every one hugs everyone else at least twice. Once after the singing service is closing, and at the close of the meeting. This huging also includes a handshake of fellowship, so that one still lives as well.

    The annointing with oil I have never witnessed in my 43 years, but I have heard of it still being done. I have seen the laying on of hands to pray for the sick, in the home or hospital.

    The Singing of Psalms. At one time I belonged to a church that used as its "hymnal" the Presbyterian metrical psalter. I have always wanted to learn how to sing more than the few I know of the psalter, but haven't met anyone with extensive knowledge of it. There is a Presbyterian group, "The Old Light Covenanters" which still use the psalter exclusively, but I have never had the opportunity to visit one of their meetings. There are only about 6000 of them left, mostly in Pennsylvania, if my understanding is correct.

    So, to sum up, I think many of the old "ordinances" still live on under different terminology.

    Thanks, Bro. Glen for the Goatyard Declaration, I hadn't read it for a couple of years. It brought good things to mind.


    In hope
    J. W.
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Also, Mr. Tyndale's posting of the web site he found states:

    quote:
    Modern Protestant Missions originated in the eighteenth century.

    How did these missions vary in style or practice from the Biblical journeys undertaken by Paul, Mark, Phillip, Peter, and Barnabas?I would think I am safe in assuming that these ancient journey's were in nature similar in that they were to spread the Good News and establish churches.

    I would like to start with this subject without making it a bone of contention. Sometime Gods children can mean well and to use a english venacular the end justifies the means. Yet I believe when discussing scripture this does not apply. I take great compassion with others even though they don't see the scriptures they way I do.
    Brother Jeff and I belong to the Primitive Baptist but if I talk to him long enough I know we are bound to disagree on something.

    I like to address everyone as brother not mister and this being an orderly site thus far and I believe we have kept it this way.
    I want to thank God for enabling us to carry ourselves here with a christian attitude all for the Glory Of God.

    I hope I am not out of place but those of you who are ministers if I'm not out of line and you don't feel this would be a hinderance to the discussion please introduce yourself so we can address you as Elder. If not I will still address you all as Brother.

    I use the handle as tyndale because of other clubs I've been in that because of the attitude of so called christians I left but from now on I'm Brother Glen.

    I just want to say something about predestination and then leave it alone. There are two camp in our group that believe in predestination. I believe that God chose his elect to be with him in heaven and he authored it, planned it, and carried it out according to his means and will without any intervention from man. There are those of the extreme camp they are called Absoluters who believe every action from birth to death was predestinated by God weather good or evil and you can't do anything about it because your life has already been set by God for you.

    I hope this is a satisfactory explaination and I believe Brother Jeff is of the same belief on predestination that I am, but I will let him speak for himself.

    I will end this post with a little predestination humor. An Elder who believed in Predestination invited an Elder of the Absoluters to preach at his church. When the Elder from the Absoluters showed up he told the Elder that invited him that this was already ordained by God for him to preach this morning. The other Elder looked at the Absoluter square in the face and said well then you can go home because I'm preaching this morning.

    If Brother Jeff wants to talk about this or something else that is up to him I hope I have cleared up our belief in predestination and will end this post with Romans 8:29-30. In all my years in the old baptist church I've heard this scripture used more than any other one... Just my thoughts Brother Glen

    [ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  15. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Hello again, gentlemen-
    I hope you all had a good morning. When Margie and I went to church today, I surveyed a few of the more knowledgable members of our congregation but none were aware of the origins of Sunday School as pertains to our church. I will consult with my friends in Richmond on this matter and see what I come up with.

    Secondly, I quote Mr. Vaughn:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 3. The term 'doxology' is not very prevalent among churches with whom I associate. But we do sometimes sing "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" to the tune Old Hundred. I think this is called 'Doxology' in some hymn books.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I snuck a peek at the hymnal we use in our church named Baptist Hymnal and found the song I refer to named Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow in common time with one sharp. Further inspection at the bottom of the staffs revealed
    "Old 100th (altered)"
    Words: Thomas Ken 1637 - 1711
    Music: (Geneven Psalter), 1551 edition; attr.Louis Bourgeois 1510 - 1561
    I have snuck into the music forum a few times and I thought Mr. Vaughn may store this away in his obviously large mental filing system fo future reference.

    I remember in my youth the song in our earlier hymnal was named Doxology. The current hymnal is published by Convention Press out of Nashville, last revision 1984. My church rises as we sing this song weekly as the ushers approach the altar with the weekly collection of offerings. Another tradition my church has fallen from that I can remember is that when these four ushers with four seperate plates reached the front, the head usher would display a larger plate into which the others were stacked. I do not know how archetypical these formalities are in other SB churches but it has remained the same (other than the unifying of the plates) my whole life.

    Thirdly, for this entry, I asked about the Weavers, a family that was quite well known in my town. The older folks here often refer to "Weaver's store" even though the edifice burned to the ground before my birth in 1964. Only the concrete steps remained for a good many years and I found today that they sit in front of the house owned by a Sunday school classmate's parent's. The classmate is in her 80's! If you are interested, Mr. Weaver, there is a date on those steps but I have not seen it yet. The store owner was named Bernard Weaver. His first wife was Eva Hughes Weaver. His second wife was Bessie Snead Burgess Weaver. I think if we dig deep enough, Jeff, we may find I am your grandfather (LOL).
    Also, while I have your attention, Mr. Weaver, I am sure that the debate over predestination can get quite, well, dogmatic. I asked only out of curiosity. My wife took time to look up the scriptural references and it is something that interest me. I did not ask to invite debate, that is not the nature of our conversations to say the least. I was just curious as to the adherence to such a belief. I had mentioned in "back to our roots" that I studied a good deal of philosophy in college and after thousands of dollars going down the pike I could look my Dad in the eye and say, "nobody knows anything for sure." Once you get past "I think therefore I am", it's a leap of faith in any direction you go. I, too will reserve my questions on that topic to another thread.

    Gentlemen, I look forward to our next meeting.

    May God bless all of you and keep you safe

    - Clint
     
  16. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Dear Mr. Kritzer

    Those Weaver family members there in Fluvanna County and I would be very distant cousins. My ancestor in that area was a fellow named Samuel Weaver, who lived in Maniken, in Goochland County. One of his sons migrated west into Southwest Virginia and later into Northwest North Carolina was my ancestor, another moved to Georgia, one into South Carolina, one remained there, and moved into Cumberland and Fluvanna counties. Before they were in Goochland, they came from New Kent County, east of Richmond, and were all descended from a Samuel Weaver who came from England in 1619 and survived the killing time in 1622-1623.

    To elaborate on the Predestination issue. Bro. Glen and I are neither what one would call Absolute Predestinarians. But here in the east, the issue is dying, and that side and our side are going back together. Hope that made sense.

    Cogito, ergo sum.... I posted something in another thread that pointed out some logical objections to the idea of free-will. The whole point being that there are humanistic problems with the two major philosophies regarding salvation prevalent in most minds. So in the long run everyone has to decide by study which is correct -- the soul liberty idea comes back into play.

    Like Bro. Glen said, I am sure that if we discuss enough stuff we will come to something we don't agree on. Hopefully we won't fall out about it. Most all Primitive Baptists are pretty obstinate on some issues, but there can be a variety of opinions on others. For an example of where there can be a variety of Primitive Baptist opinion, see my posting under the tithing thread. I admit to being a bit annoyed at what I saw there, so was a bit more militant in what I said there than I usually am. [​IMG]

    And while I am at it I should say that I dont disagree with Bro, Robert on many things. He is not a Primitive Baptist, but he ought to be. And I am not kidding on that one either.

    Enough for now, haven't felt too good today.
     
  17. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Thanks for your response, Mr. Weaver. I hope you feel better by tomorrow as I have looked forward to all the postings all of us have made.
    On the subject of Mr. Vaughn being a non-Primitive, my wife asked me today if I was thinking of switching. Perhaps I should have told her it is predestined...
    Also on the subject of Mr. Vaughn, I look forward to his review under the Baptist Books/Publications forum. I believe I may be beginning a journey toward my own "bookpoorness" or perhaps I should say "literary poverty".
    One other note, in the members only forum, under the heading of "What's your family like", I put a link to a picture of Margie, Jennifer (step-daughter), and myself. Thought you may want to see with whom you've been conversing.
    Well, this was a very chit-chatty, non-informative posting. I will try to do better tomorrow.
    Good night gentlemen and may God keep you in His care.

    - Clint
     
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    Bro. Jeff, I take it as a high compliment when you say I ought to be a Primitive Baptist, because of the great respect I have for Primitive Baptist people and churches. My thinking seems to be GENERALLY more in line with them than with other groups of Baptists. I confess to almost becoming "a man without a church"; and this is a tough position to be in for someone who regards the church as highly as I do.

    Bro. Clint, just a few notes about the use of the term 'mister'. I certainly do not find the term offensive, though somewhat more formal than I am used to. Down here we were taught to be respectful and use "ma'am" and "sir" on a regular basis (and we drawl it out slowly like our y'aaallls). But "Mr." & "Mrs." are generally reserved for school teachers and the like. Coming from a farming community, we usually used respectful terms of endearment, with many elderly people becoming "aunt" or "uncle" so-and-so, if they were close to the family (and most of them were related anyway). Or, for example, the oldest deacon in the church where I grew up was my grandfather's first cousin. We all called him Cousin John. And, of course, in the religious context, Brother and Sister were commonly used, usually even the Elders generally being referred to as Brother. I know this is way off subject, but I'm just taking a little stroll down memory lane. Sometimes I wish for simpler days. BTW, two of the three people in your family picture are very nice looking. ;) [​IMG]
     
  19. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Bro. Clint (being less formal, if that is alright). You all are younger than the mental image I had of you. [​IMG] You had better put a bag over your daughter and wife, lest some one try to steal them from you. That's backhanded compliment. Hard to communicate that from the written word.

    If you decide to become literary poor, there are a couple of very nice antiqutarian bookshops here in Arlington, which have snatched lots of my bucks in times past. Come on up and set a spell. I think there are some good ones in Williamsburg as well, and probably Richmond, if they would be more convenient. I see lots of quotes on the board from newer writers of whom I have never heard. So, I guess I should get myself to a more contemporary bookshop on occasion. [​IMG]

    Another good resource for stuff old is the Library of Virginia on Broad Street in Richmond. It is one of my favorite places in the world. If you haven't been, you should go.

    Enough for now.
     
  20. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Bro. Robert, if you ever decide to take the plunge let me know, and I will come if I can. But it is a "fur piece betwixt here and there," so give me plenty of notice. [​IMG]

    A thought that came to mind for another thread would be to post some mini-biographies of Baptist ministers of old. Perhaps a we page would be better. I know there are quite a few posted here and there around the web, but am unaware of any central access point. I think it would help understand some of the quotes you are posting to know a bit more about some of these folks. If you want to make them into a web page, I can do that fairly easily. Thoughts?

    Till later

    Jeff
     

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