On the establishment of religion: What the Constitution really says

Discussion in 'Politics' started by 2 Timothy2:1-4, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Alan Keyes was awarded a Ph.D. in government affairs from Harvard in 1979, after writing his dissertation on the theory of American constitutional government. He has since wrote many papers one of which is this:


    http://www.renewamerica.us/news/030826keyes.htm



    He is a true Constitutional Scholar.
     
  2. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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  3. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson
     
  4. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    The political problem with these sorts of issues isn't religion or the absence of it but rather public property which ought not exist.
     
    #4 Ivon Denosovich, Dec 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2007
  5. NiteShift

    NiteShift
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    Jefferson had a way of speaking differently on such matters, depending on who he was talking to. And he did so on this one as well. For example, in a letter to one Bishop Carroll in 1801, Jefferson said that he would urge local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes.


    In a letter which he wrote to the nuns of the Order of St. Ursula at New Orleans in 1804, he assured them that they would receive "the patronage of the government".




     
  6. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    True. So now the question, my friend, becomes which do you agree with:

    1) To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    2) Forced, state tithing to Catholicism.

    I opt for the first one and I'm sure you do as well.
     
  7. NiteShift

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    Regarding 1) - We furnish funds for the propagation of ideas in which we disbelieve all the time through our taxes. I'm not sure there is a way around this, other than the push and pull of the political process. No one, and no group will always be happy with the results. But that seems to be how things work with our form of government.

    Regarding 2) - I think the answer is the same as (1). If my tax dollars repave the road leading to the local Catholic school, well I'm not going to be too upset, but some might be and I guess they can protest & write to their representatives.
     
  8. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    Those of us with the infamous Big L see ALL taxation as theft. Problem solved. :)

    ETA: NiteShift, if you ever get the chance pick up Ayn Rand's Virtue of Selfishness. The essay "Government Financing in a Free Society" is worth the entire price of the book, IM-Lbtn-O.
     
    #8 Ivon Denosovich, Dec 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2007
  9. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    Good call: there's no such thing as freedom of thought without economic freedom which is why any violation of economic freedom is ultimately, inevitably becomes a restriction on speech/religion.
     
  10. NiteShift

    NiteShift
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    lol..well you Big L. types might get a crack at that again sometime. Sounds very much like anarchy to me.
     
    #10 NiteShift, Dec 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2007
  11. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    Nope. Just the free market at work. People have long since figured out that it's in their best interest to fund public services such as the military, etc and would continue to do so freely. In fact the establishment of OUR military is the result of a voluntary grass roots movement. Most Big L types see forced funding, say, for the military as an insult from a similar vein as affirmative action. In other words, the military provides an important enough service at a high enough standard of quality that it could earn its salary voluntarily without the govt. force feeding it welfare.

    But this is waaaay off topic. Sorry for the hijack, 2 Timothy2:1-4.
     
    #11 Ivon Denosovich, Dec 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2007
  12. NiteShift

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    I'm sure all good, dedicated, Big L types would voluntarily support the military in that scenario. But then not everyone is like that. An awful lot of people would say heck with that, I aint paying. And what would be the result? Big L's might wind up having to force Mr-don't-give-a-hoot to pay up his fair share. Right back where we started.

    But yep we're off-topic.
     
  13. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    PM'ing you to spare the rest of this thread.
     
  14. NiteShift

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    Ok, but will have to check back later. If I don't wrap my fiance's gift she will be disappointed in me. This is not coercion you see, I am voluntarily doing it to please her. Is that Libertarian or what?
     

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