Once Saved - Always Avoiding being Lost

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Salty, May 31, 2013.

  1. Salty

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    Some on this board do not accept the Biblical truth of eternal salvation.

    So I have a simple question -

    What does it take to loose your salvation? Is any sin too small?

    Please no dissertation - just something simple for a layman to quickly understand.

    NOTE: I will only read teh first 99 words of an answer. This policy will be strictly enforced!
    (This entire post is less than 100 words. ) And I trust all other OSAS will do likewise.
     
  2. preacher4truth

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    It falls under free will-isms.

    God succombs to our wills, and by our will we allow Him to save us. He can do nothing to save us unless we allow GOD to do so by exercising our all powerful will.

    Under this same erroneous system, when we get done with Him, we simply will Him away. He's obedient like that in this system. Kind of like a genie. It certainly doesn't look anything like GOD to me.
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Violation of God's law brings condemnation and it only takes violation in "one point' to violate all the law - James 2:10-11. Hence, the size of sin makes no difference and it is sin that would separate a person from God and come under condemnation of the Law.
     
  4. preacher4truth

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    What exactly does this have to do with losing salvation????
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    I am responding to his question concerning "is there any sin to small." The act of the will in rejecting Christ is just another "sin." My position on the will is clearly stated in another post. I do not believe the will is "free" from a depraved heart and mind. In the unregenerated man indwelling sin is in the ruling position. In regeneration it is removed from the ruling position and is only allowed to rule as we fail to yeild to the Spirit of God.
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    That wasn't clear but 'gotcha'! :thumbsup:
     
  7. Thomas Helwys

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    I will try to answer you with my belief as honestly and clearly as I am able. I don't think it has to do with sin, the way you mean. I don't think you can lose your salvation, but I do think you can forfeit it. How? By willfully turning away from God and Christ and rejecting your salvation, and remaining in that state, unrepentant. I don't think any sin, great or small, or any amount of sinning can cause you to lose your salvation. We are still sinners even after conversion. I believe we can forfeit our salvation by an act of willful rejection and unrepentance.

    So, I am not Calvinist, Classical Arminian, or Wesleyan on this, but my position is that of the original English Baptists.

    I believe that is a sufficient statement of how I view this. I do not desire to get into a personal back-and-forth on this matter.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    That is simply not historically accurate and you cannot prove it at all. I have furnished documented evidence that particular Baptists claimed their churches preceded Henry VIII in another post long before Thomas Helwy and John Smith.
     
  9. Thomas Helwys

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    It is definitely historically accurate. Landmarkism is totally discredited; it is as much fable as RCC apostolic succession. Particular Baptists came out of English Separatist Independency, or Calvinistic Puritanism. And since Calvinism did not exist before Calvin, neither did Calvinist Baptists.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    William Whitsitt's theory has been totally discredited by John T. Christian altogether ("Did they Dip" etc.).

    Apparently you deny the testimony of both Hensard Knollys and William Kiffin concerning their own eye witness testimonies.

    Your view of history is false and a product of pedobaptist historians who have a long track record of malicious historical perversions.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Do you even know the essence of Landmarkism? William Cathcart in his Baptist Encyclopedia under "Landmarkism" provides the readers with the essence of that view. Have you ever read it? I will defend that definition anytime anywhere against anyone as it is the historical position of Baptist from their earliest roots.
     
  12. evangelist-7

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    This is an appeal to rationality ... and not to preconceived doctrinality, i.e. bias!

    Jesus flat out says in Rev 21:7-8 ...
    He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,
    idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
    which is the second death.


    Maybe we can all agree that Jesus is NOT talking about:
    -- lying once in a lifetime
    -- lying occasionally, but properly repenting of it

    I am saying that Jesus is referring to ...
    absolutely everyone who lies habitually without proper repentance!

    Proper repentance is the result of one (or both) of these:
    -- the Holy Spirit convicting a person
    -- a person's conscience

    Proper repentance results in a person doing a sin less and less (until it is overcome).
    And Jesus provides many Scriptures about the necessity to be an overcomer.

    Now, what are the problems with the above?

    .
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    I can agree with this definition as no true child of God exists who does not lie repeatedly throughout life. For example, you just lied in the previous thread when you accused me of calling you a servant of Satan. Those who examine my post can easily see that is a lie, as I did not even address your thread but Hewly's and I did not name anyone but merely defined Satan's calling card. Do you know the meaning of "also"! That is the word you used and it is an accusation that I called hewly a servant of Satan. Will you repent? We'll see but I doubt it.

    Secondly, no true child of God is without Holy Spirit conviction whenever he sins. However, as in the case of David and others, repentance is not always immediate or even in the immediatve vacinity of the sin committed.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Jun 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2013
  14. BobRyan

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    Christ gave the very simplest example of it in Matt 18 where HE describes the principle of "Forgiveness REVOKED".

    It begins with "I FORGAVE YOU ALL that debt" .

    And it ends with "Make HIM repay ALL that he owed".

    But of course Christ did not leave it there - Christ said that the takeway from that simple simple simple illustration is "SO shall my Father do to EACH one of YOU - IF you do not forgive others" AS you HAVE been forgiven.

    So simple - that no layman - no matter how simple could miss it.

    ======================

    Matt 18

    27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
    28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
    29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
    31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    ======================

    So the question is - since this is so very very simple - why are people avoiding it who believe in OSAS?

    It could be that it is so easy to get - that the only way to believe in OSAS "anyway" is simply to avoid this teaching of Christ in the Bible?

    OSAS is yet another man-made tradition seen to fail the sola-scriptura test of scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    I am going to do that same thing again --- only this time comparing OSAS to Romans 11. Where we find that the saved "stand only by their faith" and must "FEAR for if HE did not spare them - neither will he spare you".

    Later I will do it "again" - only then I will compare OSAS to Gal 5:4 where we find it that the saved had indeed "Fallen from Grace" and "been severed from Christ" -- no longer saved.

    Just when the OSAS Calvinist POV would wrench this around to saying "oh no - this is just a bible warning to the LOST against the big danger of becoming lostER - it is not a warning to those who are under grace and in fellowship with Christ" - the Bible flatly contradicts OSAS.

    So the question for those clinging to OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - why do it?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Jun 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

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    Your assertions about Romans 11 and Galatians 5:4 are contextually unsubstantiated.

    Romans 11 has no bearing on INDIVIDUAL salvation but rather with ethnic sources in which God obtains His elect. Galatians 5:4 refers to falling away from doctrine of "grace" through deception teaching (Gal. 3:1).
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    How do we know that they are in the process of being removed from grace as a theological position unto works rather than being removed from the state of grace or the experience of grace (power) unto a lost condition? Those who deny eternal security argue that the Galatians are in danger of losing their state or experience of grace and thus in the process of becoming lost.
    First, we know this because the words “ANOTHER gospel” are placed in direct contrast to the words “the grace of Christ” (v. 7). This infers that the phrase “the grace of Christ” is definitive of the true gospel because it is in contrast to the words “another gospel.” Why choose this particular phrase “the grace of Christ” to represent the true gospel? He is defining the true gospel by its primary theological truth – “grace.” It should be obvious that the words “another gospel” do not refer to a state or an experience but rather to the primary expression of theological error. That error is the addition of “justification by works” to the gospel of Christ. Therefore the phrase “the grace of Christ” is intended to express the primary theological truth of the gospel and thus later Paul repeatedly refers to it as “the truth” of the gospel.

    To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. (Gal 2:5)

    But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Gal 2:14)

    O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (Gal 3:1)

    Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? (Gal 5:7)


    Second, we know this because in the Greek text, the word translated “grace” is found in what grammarians call the anarthous construct. This simply means that it is without the definite article (what we know in English as the word “the”). Dana and Mantey make this comment upon such a construction in the Greek Grammar:

    Sometimes with a noun which the context proves to be definite the article is not used. This places stress upon the qualitative aspect of the noun rather than its mere identity.” - A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 149

    Paul’s grammatical intent is to emphasize the THEOLOGICAL truth of grace as the chief characteristic of His gospel.

    Throughout this epistle it is this “truth” of the gospel that is being contrasted to the chief characteristic of the false gospel – works.

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)

    This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:2)

    He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:5)

    Third, we know this because when Paul identifies the very point of their departure he chooses these words - “ye have fallen FROM GRACE.” One cannot fall from “undeserved favor” as that is an oxymoron (grace can never be deserved and to fall would only qualify you for “grace”).

    Fourth, we know this because when Paul considers the very error that some were persuading them to add to the gospel, he says, “I do not frustrate the grace of God” (Gal. 1:21). It was their theological error of justification by works that frustrated the truth of justification by grace.

    Fifth, another reason that we know this was a theological issue rather than experiential is because Paul pinpoints the exact means responsible for their fall or departure from grace. It was in the area of verbal communication that promoted their fall from grace:

    “....PREACH any other gospel...than that which we have PREACHED...If any man PREACH....than that ye have RECEIVED.....the gospel which was PREACHED of me...For I neither RECEIVED it....neither was I TAUGHT it....that I might PREACH...” - Gal. 1:8,9,11,12,16

    This PERSUASION cometh not of him that calleth you” (Gal. 5:8).

    Who hath bewitched you.....” - Gal. 3:1
     
  18. drfuss

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    Committing any sin cannot cause a Christian to lose their salvation. I do not know of any such Christian beliefs except possibly the rcc. I do not know where that idea comes from. A Christian can forfeit their salvation by making a decision to stop trusting Christ. Wesleyan Arminians believe a still believing Christian can lose their salvation by the long time resistance to the Holy Spirit conviction for known sins.
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    Yet Jesus says He will lose none, John 6:39 - yet you say a Christian can thwart this and forfeit salvation.

    I wonder who is correct, Christ or you?
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Take note that not one of these guys have tried to respond to either thread on John 6:36-40 or John 6:38-39
     

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