Once Saved Always Saved - Biblical??

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Aug 27, 2003.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Y'all,

    I would like to discuss with you about the doctrine of salvation issue.

    For a long time, myself been hold osas doctrine as "eternal security salvation" doctrine. That time, myself never think of label or called myself, "osas", because I never hear it before.

    'Eternal security salvation' is samiliar as Calvinism's one of the five points - "Perservance of the Saints". Both Baptists(non-Calvinists) and Calvinists believe a person never lose salvation.

    For a long time, I was an independent fundamental baptist. Now, I am still a truly baptist, but not IFB or SBC either.

    I would like to share with you the scriptures to show prove they are not unconditional salvation.

    All of three books that Apostle John, the Beloved written were given the message to the Christians only.

    Often, we notice word, "IF" in his books. Seems to me that there is no offically that a Christian finally saved at once after believed in Christ - eternal salvation.

    Notice word, "if", seems to me, that it warns to us, depend on any individual Christian who make their own choice or decision that is freewill. Calvinism teaches against freewill. But, the Bible teaches us, there is very obivously prove that we so have freewill!

    1 John 1:6 says, "IF we say that we have fellowship with him,(BUT...) and walk in darknessm we lie and do NOT the truth."

    Too many Christians are hyprocrisy today, they have two faces. I admit, I am hyrocrite. God hates hyprocrite people, you know that.

    1 John 1:7 says, "IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    It proves us, that we DO have freewill to make our choice, depend on any individual Christian who decide to walk godly live, Christ truly forgive person's sin, IF a person honest walk godly life, not hyprocrisy.

    1 John 1:8 "IF we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

    Today, often Christains saying, I doing no sin everyday, I am living holy, same as Pharisees do. I read a booklet of late Dr. Curtis Hutson. When he was a pastor at Forest Hills Baptist Church in Decutar, GA. A member came into his office. A member told him, never have a sin in 10 years. Dr. Hutson laughed, he told to a member, you lied, he showed a verse to a member, guess what? A member was angry at him.

    Often osas pastors, teachers prove 1 John 1:9 teach on osas doctrine, and this verse is a popular for teaching on prayer. But...

    1 John 1:9 says, "IF we confess our sins, he(Christ) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Osas pastors often use this verse to prove us, no matter how often we sinned daily in our life, God can forgive our sins everyday, we still always be saved.

    But...it says, "IF" proves, what if suppose a Christian NEVER ask or confess to Christ of sins for forgiveness for a LONG TIME or till death, will Christ ever forgive a Christian's sin, and still going to heaven? No, I don't think so. Christ would NOT forgive a Christian's sins, IF a Christian does NOT confess sins to Christ.

    1 John 1:6-7 reminds me of 'darkness'

    Please go to 1 Thess 5:4-7.

    Often, I hear pretrib pastors teaching on 1 Thess 5:4-7, that a person in the light is a Christian, a person in the dark is not a Christian-lost person.

    Is that correct? Partially correct.

    But...

    1 Thess 5:4 says, "But ye, brethren, are NOT in darkness, that that(I dislike English grammar rule, it does not make a sense to me) day should overtake you as a thief."

    Apostle Paul seems not saying we are always in the light prove it is eternality security salvation. Notice word, 'not', seems to me, that Paul urges us, we should NOT walk in the darkness.

    1 Thess 5:5 says, "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are NOT of the night, NOR of darkness."

    It seems prove osas doctrine. But, I do not see osas doctrine in 1 Thess 5:5. Seems to me, that Apostle Paul commands us, that we are NOT of the night, or NOT in the darkness.

    1 Thess 5:6 says, "THEREFORE LET US NOT SLEEP, AS DO OTHERS; but let us WATCH and be SOBER."

    1 Thess 5:6 clears prove us, it is not osas doctrine. Apostle Paul urges or command us that we OUGHT walk in the light, and watch.

    Same with 1 John 1:6-7 commands us, that we should walk in the light.

    Light is not literally visibly or object. It represents figurative meaning. Light means, to walk life holy and blameless, not do sinning life. Dark means love the wolrd, and do sinning all the time, NOT being to watch for Christ's coming.

    Please look in Rev. 3:3 says, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard HOLD FAST, and REPENT.(BUT...)IF therefore thou shalt not NOT wtach, I will come ON THEE as a THIEF, and thou not know what hour I will come upon thee."

    Rev. 3:3 is very obivously against osas doctrine. Jesus warns us, that we must be watch and be endure and confess our sins faithfully(repent), or... IF a person do not watch and repent, Jesus shall come to catch a person in as thief. Seems to me, that a person COULD be taken in unexpect and thrown out to join with unbelievers(please see Matt 24:48-51).

    Also, please read Rev. 2:5 says, "Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and so the first works; OR else I will come unto THEE quickly, and will REMOVE thy candlestick OUT of his place(WHY?)EXCEPT THOU REPENT."

    It is very obivously against osas doctrine. Jesus warns us, IF we do not watch and repent sin, He shall come on us quickly as thief, and remove us from his place, means he COULD remove our salvation. HUH???

    Now back to first epsitle of John.

    1 John 2:4 says, "He that saith, I KNOW him(Christ),(BUT...)keepeth NOT his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is NOT in him."

    In fact, too many Christians say or claim, they believed in Christ, BUT, they do NOT obey Lord's commandments or Words, so, that mean, they are not in Christ.

    in 2 Thess 1:8 warns, when Christ comes with his angels, a person shall be thrown into the eternality fire(WHY??)"that OBEY NOT the gospel of our LOrd Jesus Christ."

    Do not argue with me, argue with 2 Thess 1:8.

    I do not have to explain all in three epistles of John. I urge you to read whole three epistles of John. I can see non-osas doctrine in them.

    How about 1 John 5:13?? OSAS pastors often use this verse to prve it is eternality salvation because of our assurance.

    I love 1 John 5:13! I agree with 1 John 5:13, it is the PROMISE to us, that IF we believe in Christ, so, we CAN KNOW that we have eternal life.

    Or, otherwise, if a Christian stopped believing in Christ, could cause doubt in salvation. And a Christian could be removed from salvation. IF stopped believing in Christ.

    I urge you to read whole context of 1 John chapter 5, you will notice several words - "IF" in chapter 5.

    So, please think about the three epistkes of John, because I notice "IF" in three epistles. I consider the key word of the three epistles of John is "IF". It is conditional salvation.

    I will continue discuss more another scriptures to prove them are not unconditional salvation.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I don't have time right now to address your whole post, but I noticed you drew a lot from 1 John. John continues with his admonitions into chapter, 2, along with some exhortations. Then he says (emphasis mine)...

    Note that John doesn't say they "went out from us because they backslid and lost their salvation". He says "they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us". In other words, their behavior was an extension of their condition. Obviously people can "fake" Christian behavior (at least for a time), but their true nature will probably be made manifest sooner or later.

    More important, however, is this passage in John (emphasis mine):

    The question is simple. Is it really true that it is the will of Him who sent Jesus (God) that Jesus shall lose NONE of all of those God has given Him? If so, then is God out of control, and despite what Jesus said, it really is possible that Jesus can lose some of those God has given Him?
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    Hey, Deafposttrib:

    I was looking for IF.....then, you are damned in hell and never was covered by His blood at all. Didn't find it there. Also, I was wondering about Noah. Good start, that fellow, but ended up owning a "distillery", a drunk, and an occassion for sin for one of his sons.

    Oh, yeah, there's Lot, too. Carnal, worldly, Lot. Wouldn't choose the mountains because they look so...foreboding ? insurmountable ? The plains looked better for him, with all its glitter and cities and business opportunities. So, next thing we know, his morals are mixed up (sirs, take my daughters if you like, but leave those men alone), his wife was so attached to their wealth and prosperity and popularity she could not resist looking back, and...you know what's next. Then, you have Lot's daughters, piece of work, those two, didn't think nothing of lying down with their father.

    And last, but not the least, there is Samson. Arrogant, egotist, self-centered as anyone can be, to the point that even his only recorded prayer to the God who chose him despite was for his revenge, not to avenge God's name.

    I guess Jesus had to die several times to save those saints ?
     
  4. npetreley

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    You forgot David (adultery and murder) and a host of others... ;)
     
  5. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    I believe the good Lord sent Nathan the prophet Davids way and David repented.
    I for one am not a believer in OSAS. I believe it a false doctrine. Too many "ifs" in the Bible as Deafposttrib listed.
    I believe the only person that can seperate us from the Lord is ourselves, the hardening of ones hearts to a point where once a believer does not care anymore. He/she says "I am tired of doing Gods will, time once again to live my life they way I want to!" "No more church, no more Bible no more anything that has to do with Jesus!" When someone reaches that point I believe they have lost their salvation. Note: a person may not actually say this but their actions do. It is very hard to accomplish but possible.
     
  6. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3
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    Perhaps you're forgetting, or maybe you never understood this, that in order to be a Christian in the first place, all sin must be paid for and forgiven through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ. All sin - past, present, and future - is forgiven at the moment that faith in the blood begins. What wondrous grace! A saved person that understands this truth will desire to live for the Lord and will never fully apostatize.

    If a seemingly saved person comes to the point of rejecting Christ's work on the Cross, counting the blood of the Lord as an unholy thing, it shows that the person has never been saved yet. There is no other way for sins to be forgiven.

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    I believe the good Lord sent Nathan the prophet Davids way and David repented.

    I for one am not a believer in OSAS. I believe it a false doctrine. Too many "ifs" in the Bible as Deafposttrib listed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly why I did not list them. As you pointed out, they repented, and repentance is what those who disdain the OSAS doctrine is looking for. So, how can you explain those three ? In the Hall of Faith, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in Hebrews 11:7 one finds Noah's name, Samson's in verse 32. Lot you will find in 2 Peter 2:7 and in verse 5 you find Noah again.
     
  8. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    Samson, still remembered the Lord, He may have even repented.
    "28Then Samson called to the LORD, saying, "O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, just this once, O God, that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes!" 29And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars which supported the temple, and he braced himself against them, one on his right and the other on his left. 30Then Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" And he pushed with all his might, and the temple fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead that he killed at his death were more than he had killed in his life. "
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    I just got home from 3rd shift work this morning. It was overtime!! [​IMG] I will reply back to you as what you said. Also, I will continue to give more veses to prove conditional salvaion to you later today.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  10. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    Here in lies your problem. You believe someone is saved by "doing God's will", not sinning,"going to church", reading the Bible, etc. My friend, if you believe this is what saves you then you are not saved at all. You are saved in trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ. You are saved in trusting someone, not doing something. So instead of saying, "I will not follow Jesus anymore", the man would need to declare, "I no longer believe Jesus can save me from my sins!" If you no longer believe it must lead me to ask, "What did Jesus do in order that you no longer believe he can do what he says". "Why did you stop trusting him?"
     
  11. Tim too

    Tim too
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    The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

    If you are going to be so dogmatic about the will of God, then everyone is going to be saved. :D However, that cannot be justified by the rest of the word of God. I don't think that David believed in Calvin's perseverance of the saints.

    He said, "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9 NKJV

    Beware, forsaking God and losing your salvation is a real possibility.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  12. Artimaeus

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    John Doe was born and is the son of James Doe. Someone please tell me what John can do to stop being the son of James.
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    We all know about David's sins!... And he suffered for them while on this earth... In fact it says that the sword of the Lord never departed from his house!... Did God hate his sins?... He sure did and he suffered for them... HERE!... Same as all his disobedient children... HERE!... Whether David's Saul or Saul of Tarsus... HERE!... We ALL when we sin suffer HERE!... NOT HEREAFTER!... Jesus Christ came to save ALL his children!... DID HE DO IT?... If not why do the scripture say he did!... But he also saves us daily from ALL sin HERE!... He is our intercessor between GOD and MAN!

    Was it FINISHED when he said it was... If not why not?... God the Father accepted that sacrifice and raised him from the DEAD!... Question... Would the Father have raised his Son if the task he gave him was incomplete?... NEVER!... God looking down through time seeing the end from the beginning knew who was embraced in the ones given to the Son from the Father to save... God chose them by his love for them and not by anything they did to deserve that love... He saved them by his LOVING GRACE... Unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject... OSAS is biblical and through it NO ONE gets the Glory except GOD!... Freewillism is an abomination and a stench in God's nostrils as Jesus Christ did ALL the work which his grace wrought blood bought children benefit from his sacrifice and none else!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    I'm back.

    On 1 John 2:19...

    Look at it carefully, it says, "They went OUT FROM us, but they were not of us;(you saying that they are not belong to us as Christians)for IF had been fo us , they would NO DOUBT HAVE CONTINUED WITH US: But they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

    Apotle John tells us, about any Christians who WAS with us in the first place, they SHOULD HAVE CONTINUE with us, BUT, they went out - falling away, so..... John says, "that they were NOT all of us." Means they are lost after they decide turn away from the Lord, not continue faith in the Lord with us.

    You mentioned on Lot because of 2 Peter 2:7.

    But, Jesus told to the disciples - Luke 17:32-33 REMEMBER Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek TO SAVE HIS LIFE SHALL LOSE IT(or..) and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

    When Lot and his wife was in Sodom, two angels came to Lot's house. Angel told to Lot and his family, NOT look back at Sodom, keep forward escapse, as angel give instruction with warning. I believe in the first place, Lot's wife was just, that she DID flee with Lot out of Sodom.

    But, Lot's wife does NOT OBEY angel's warning, she turned her eyes back toward Sodom, then immediately she became pillar of salt!! She got punished for disobey God's instruction, I believe Lot's wife is in hell right now.

    On Lot.. He did obeyed angel's instruction and warning, he does NOT turn his eyes toward Sodom.

    Why Lot's wife turned her eyes toward Sodom? Because she LOVED Sodom as "world".

    In 2 John 2:15 says, "Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. IF any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him."

    It tells us, that we do not love the world, if we love world more than God, then God is NOT in us. That why we must seperate from the world, and have to lose my selfish things, and surrender follow Christ to lost my things and my life, but my soul save for eternal life AFTER lose my selfish things and my own ways -Luke 17:33.

    King David...

    We all know King David did fell in sin with adultery and murder.

    In Psalms 51:9-12 - David confessed to God, he said, "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Creat in me a clean heart, O God and REnew a right spirit within me. CAST ME NOT AWAY from thy presence and TAKE NOT thy holy spirit from me. REstore unto me the joy of SALVATION; and uphold me with thy free spirit."

    David acknowledges that God left him, when he sinned against Him for adultery and murder, at first, he was just then later he sinned, he become lose, Holy Spirit left him. God sent prophet Nathan to David, and to rebuked him for sins. Then, David repented his sins to God, ask for forgive, he asked God for restore of his salvation.

    In Luke 15:32, son "was dead and is ALIVE AGAIN, and was lost, and is FOUND." At first place, son was with his father, he was live, when he turn away from his father, become lose, then later, he repent turn back to his father, then became alive AGAIN.

    WHAT IF..... God does NOT send prophet Nathan to David, he could have gone to hell already.

    I want to discuss on two passages.

    Jesus given the parable of the soil - Matt 13:18-23.

    Verse 20-21 say, "But he that RECEIVED the seed into stony places, the same is he that HEARETH the word, and anon with JOY RECEIVETH IT; YET hath he NOT root in himself, but dureth FOR A WHILE: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is OFFENDED."

    Jesus tells us, a person who received the gospel of salvation and joy with it, but not yet have foundation in the root of the faith, believing in it for a SHORT TIME, then when trials come upon a person, then falling away!!

    There is another passage same as what Jesus spoken of the parble - Luke 8:11-15.

    Verse 12-13 "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they HEAR, RECIEVE the word with JOY; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY."

    Jesus tells us, a person who hear the gospel, and receive with believing, but for a short time, when the trial come upon a person, then fall away. When a person hear the gospel and believed on it and saved, but for a short tiem, then fall away become lose again.

    Jesus given another passage in John 15:1-6. Jesus is the vine, His Father is the farmer, we are the branch.

    Verse 4-6 "ABIDE in me, and I in you: As the branch cannhot bear fruit of itself, EXCEPT it ABIDE in the vine; no more can ye, EXCEPT YE ABIDE IN ME. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that ABIDETH in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man ABIDE NOT in me, he is CAST forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and CAST them inot the FIRE, and they are BURNED;"

    Word, 'abide' means to dwell, TO REMAIN same as endure.

    Jesus tells us, we must be remain in Christ, or if we do not remain in Christ, then, we will be cast away into hell.

    Matt 10:22; and Matt 24:13 tell us, that we MUST BE ENDURE till the end then be saved.

    John 15:10 - "IF ye KEEP my commandments, ye shall ABIDE in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

    Jesus tells us, if we KEEP his commandments, we should ABIDE in Christ. Or... if we do NOT keep His comandments, then, we are NOT abide in Christ.

    That is very obivlously conditional salvation.

    I will continue discuss more with other verses about OSAS tomorrow.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  15. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    No problem of mine, I do not believe someone is saved by doing God’s will. I am showing that if you have the faith you will have good works. If you are truly saved, you will naturally being doing Gods will and fleeing from sin. I am NOT saying your works save you. If you say you believe and love Jesus why would you willfully sin?
    We are saved by "faith." The Bible tells us, FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD-Ro 10:17. Faith comes only from God’s Word. We must also act on the Word. For it is written, AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD (if you do not have God’s Spirit, you are not born-again), SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO-Ja 2:26. EVEN SO FAITH, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE. YEA, A MAN MAY SAY, THOU HAST FAITH, AND I HAVE WORKS: SHOW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, AND I WILL SHOW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS: (by what I do)-Ja 2:17,18. Again, the Scriptures say, BUT WILT THOU KNOW, O VAIN MAN, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? SEEST THOU HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?-Ja 2:20,22. Notice, that faith is made perfect through works. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY-Ja 2:24.
    For by God’s GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM-Eph 2:8-10.
    We are saved by grace. This is a gift of God. We cannot earn it. To come under grace, we must follow in obedience to the Word. We need to believe, which means a total uncompromising commitment of love and obedience. Are you truly born-again?


    It is written, NOW UNTO HIM THAT IS ABLE TO KEEP YOU FROM FALLING-Jude 24. So we ask, how does God keep us from falling? We stand BY FAITH-Ro 11:20. However, SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH-1 Tim 4:1. HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH-1 Tim 5:12. We are warned that, IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM-Heb 10:38. God keeps you from falling through your faith. If you cast off your faith or draw back, God will have no pleasure in you. The Bible urges us, do not DRAW BACK (from faith)…UNTO PERDITION-Heb 10:38,39.
    Moses knew you could lose salvation. He besought God saying, YET NOW, IF THOU WILT, FORGIVE THEIR SIN; AND IF NOT, BLOT ME, I PRAY THEE, OUT OF THY BOOK WHICH THOU HAST WRITTEN. AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, WHOSOEVER HATH SINNED AGAINST ME, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK-Ex 32:32,33. David knew you could lose salvation. He prayed, LET THEM BE BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LIVING-Ps 69:28. If your name is in the book of life, you are saved. If your name is blotted out, you lose your salvation.

    It is written, YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE-Gal 5:4. There are those who say this does not mean what it says. They interpret it to mean that the people are fallen away from the message of grace. God will justly recompense to all who misuse the Word. We are SAVED THROUGH FAITH-Eph 2:8. Now, if you turn from your faith (seek to be justified by circumcision, thus a debtor to the Law), you are not standing by faith. You are fallen from grace. You lost your salvation.
    It is written, BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED, IF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD… OTHERWISE YOU HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN-1 Cor 15:2 NIV. You may be saved, but if you turn from the Word (from Jesus), it is all for nothing. You have believed in vain.
    Matthew 7:17-21 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
     
  16. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Excellent presentation of truth Matthew 24:16! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Keep up the good work. [​IMG]

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  17. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Well, I know you're not going to like this, but I'll say it anyway. ;) The Greek word for "any" in that verse is:

    New Testament Greek for ' some men '

    5100 tis {tis}
    an enclitic indefinite pronoun;; pron
    AV - certain 104, some 73, any man 55, any 37, one 34, man 34,
    anything 24, a 9, certain man 7, something 6, somewhat 6,
    ought 5, some man 4, certain thing 2, nothing + 3756 2, divers 2,
    (strong's number 5100)

    Note that the word is most often translated as "certain", then "some", after which comes "any man", then "any", then "one", and so on.

    So a perfectly legitimate and perhaps even preferable interpretation of the verse would be "not willing that some/certain men [presumably the elect, the remnant] should perish, but that all [of them] should come to repentance".
     
  18. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Nope. This is a very selfish prayer, note, "that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes ." Now, David, on the other hand, had righteous indignation against Goliath in that in insulting the Lord's people (represented by national Israel) the Lord was the One really being insulted.

    [Harold Camping will probably say, though, that Samson's two eyes were representative of the believers since the number two is associated with believers. :D :D ]
     
  19. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Matthew 7 is an interesting choice of quotes. Let's look at the whole thing again including the 2 verses that follow (as always, emphasis mine)...

    Okay, first Jesus says that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, and by their fruits you will know them. Then Jesus says that these people offered as their defense the fact that they prophesied (I take this to mean preached), cast out demons, and did wonders all in the name of Jesus. Jesus does not say they never did any of those things. Jesus says they practiced lawlessness and He never knew them.

    Now, it seems to me that if I saw someone preaching, casting out demons and doing wonders in the name of Jesus, I would have thought I could know by these "fruits" that they were good trees - at least if one equates "good fruits" as "good works". But the following 2 verses explicitly say otherwise. Not only did these people practice lawlessness, Jesus says He never knew them (they didn't fall from grace).

    It appears as if the meaning of good trees/good fruit, bad trees/bad fruit demands more examination.
     
  20. Tim too

    Tim too
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    That is a good point. Since I am Greek poor I checked my favorite translations. Then I checked the other translations that I have. I could not find it translated "some/certain men" in any of them. Do you know of a translation that translates it "some/certain men?" Since all the translations I looked at have it as "any" I am inclined to believe that the context must require that it be translated as “any.”

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     

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