"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

Amen! Your statement, "unacknowledged by Jesus Christ" implies, HE, IS, "the book of life". The dead are judged accordingly: Is one's name "written" in that BOOK, Jesus Christ, the WORD of God, his "life is hid in Christ in God"; if not, one is outside, and is cast into fire that burns with brimstone. Those whose names ARE in HIM - in the BOOK of LIFE - are there from eternity in God in Christ, and can never be removed - 'once saved, always saved' - blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!

 

Quoting revirm, "salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in His love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling him to remain there. IF they were unable to leave, it would be utterly senseless to ask them to remain."
I want to tell you what would be impossible and senseless, that such an one as having been taken up into the heart and love of God, would wish to break out again! Your supposition is at fault - not the truth we are to stay in the love of Christ.
Have you experienced hanging on for dear life onto something - I mean physically now? Then you must have hears the rescuers cry for dear life: Hold! Hold on! As if that one in predicament would let go out of desire to let go? Silly!

 

Quoting Claudia T, "This parable emphatically renounces the doctrine of o.s.a.s. Note in verse 2 that the branches "IN HIM" that do not bear fruit will be taken away. Notice in verse 6, if a man does not "ABIDE" (or remain/continue) in Christ he is cast forth "withered" (indicating it used to be alive) and cast into the fire."

Unfortunately one of those passages not translated true to either the text or the force of the idea brought home. The word translated "taken away" or "cut off" in fact should have been translated: "lifted up" or "lead" - so that of course it would better bear fruit seeing such shoot by the act of God, is "IN HIM" already!

 

Greetings Catholic one

[regarding the parable of the vine] ...

Surprise! You are absolutely right here. As the vine grows, some branches fall off its pedastal and come in contact with the ground and exterior moisture. This brings rotten fruit. The vine dresser must make sure that this part of the vine is lifted up off the soil and fastened onto the pedastal.

Claudia is merely reading her denominational creed into the passage. It is a quite customary tho unwelcomed thing. It leads to lots of different views. God's Word takes honest genuine meditative study - not memorization of church dogma. True for Claudia. True for Catholics. True for me too.

Lloyd

 

Greetings

Justification determines one's destiny in God's family. Sanctification determines the intensity of the relationship.

Remain in Jesus' love is an encouragement to remain in an intense relationship. Fall out of love and you fall out of the relationship. This does not mean that you are kicked out of God's family.

When you cannot understand justification, then much of the Bible remains noeticly clouded.
LLoyd

 

Hi ascund:

…he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How can the words of Jesus above mean anything other than what they say…cast them into the fire, and they are burned. To me, a laymen reading the bible, I don’t get that they will merely fall out of a relationship. The language Jesus uses is just too strong.

Could there be a slight possibility that your definitions of Justification is wrong? I admit that I’m not an expert on these subjects, but I am planning a study on Justification. I’d like to trace Justification back to the Reformation and see what I come up with.

Blessings

 

Hi Riverm

This is why context is so important. A common sense reader really trying to build a system on God's Word will not focus on one verse but will understand context.

Here, context is the UPper Room. Jesus is talking to believers. They all knew the viticulture and could understand that Jesus was talking about the little extra nugatory growths. This is not a life or death matter for the branch. Only the superfluous stuff is removed and burned.

Furthermore, God gives us 1 Cor 3:11-15 to see that even if everything that the believer has is consumed in the fires of judgment, that the vain faithless believer (not my recommendation) IS STILL SAVED.

Your method grabs a fierce looking verse and demands perfection. It is a system of death for no one can comply with your system - not even you.

If your system is truth, then we all go to hell. Thank God that:
___ Jesus' work is truly finished
___ He accepts Jesus' righteousness.
___ Christ's righteousness is IMPUTED to us!


Thank God!
Lloyd

 

Hi Claudia_T:

Johns recount of the Last Supper has always been a little suspect for me in regards to OSAS. It doesn’t make sense when Christ tells us that IF we keep His commandments (again commandments is plural) we will remain in His love. But he who does not remain in His love is …cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

If salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in His love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling him to remain there. </font>[/QUOTE]You are correct. Warning against the easter bunny coming to eat your evergreen trees is silly if in fact there is no easter bunny!


Also in Matt 18 we see the example of Matt 18 where the FORGIVEN servant experiences "forgiveness REVOKED" for failing to "FORGIVE as HE WAS forgiven".

A devastating problem for OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Trinity.

God is Spirit. Spiritual Life I guess.

I don't know why you find it vague. Are we not all talking about our Christian God? Can God's life, or God if you like, cease to exist and why or why not according to the scriptures? Or maybe the scriptures do not tell us?

God Bless!

 

No problem at all for the OSAS camp.

The parable has nothing to do with salvation. Forgiving others does not save or keep one saved. Can you give any supporting scripture that declares lack of forgiving revokes salvation?

Would you like the scripture to read...By your merits you have been saved, through forgiving others, and that of yourselves, yes by works, that you may boast...?

God Bless!

 

Greetings

You ignore context – again! Jesus presented this parable as a response to Peter’s question regarding the number of times that he should forgive a brother. Jesus links His temporal present forgiveness of the believer’s confessional requests with the forgiveness of others.

This does not make the eternal forgiveness of sins and destiny conditional upon fickle human capacity to forgive others. God’s word teaches that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God (Rom 8:39). In fact, forgivness is a total done deal - the believer is permanently freed from sin (Rom 6:7).

Although nothing can sever God’s child from this so great love, sin inhibits fellowship. Sin “vitiates” service. Thus, the confession of sin is crucial to the close walk of fellowship with Jesus.

God’s forgiveness of sins begun in past salvation is not dependent upon the present confession of sins. But God’s present salvation forgiveness of sins is dependent upon the believer’s forgiveness of others. Jesus is serious about loving our enemies. Expulsion is not a synonym for eternal damnation.

Please note that past salvation determines eternal destiny while present salvation is the measure of a believer’s victory over the power of sin.

LLoyd

 

This once saved always saved theory is nothing else than an attempt to look for some excuse to shun the cross.

The question now to be asked is, Are the professed followers of Christ complying with the conditions upon which the blessing is pronounced? Are they separating in spirit and practice from the world? How hard to come out and be separate from worldly habits and customs! But let us look well to it that Satan does not allure and deceive us through false representations. Eternal interests are here involved. God's claims should come first; His requirements should receive our first attention.


Every child of fallen Adam must, through the transforming grace of Christ, become obedient to all God's requirements. Many close their eyes to the plainest teachings of His Word because the cross stands directly in the way. If they lift it, they must appear singular in the eyes of the world; and they hesitate and question and search for some excuse whereby they may shun the cross. Satan is ever ready, and he presents plausible reasons why it would not be best to obey the Word of God just as it reads. Thus souls are fatally deceived.


One of Satan's most successful deceptions is to lead men to claim to be sanctified, while at the same time they are living in disobedience to God's commandments. These are described by Jesus as those who will say, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"


Yes, those who claim to be sanctified have a great deal to say about being saved by the blood of Jesus, but their sanctification is not through the truth as it is in Jesus. While claiming to believe in Him, and apparently doing wonderful works in His name, they ignore His Father's law and serve as agents of the great adversary of souls to carry forward the work which he began in Eden, that of making plausible excuses for not obeying God implicitly. Their work of leading men to dishonour God by ignoring His law will one day be unfolded before them with its true results.


The conditions of eternal life are made so plain in God's Word that none need err, unless they choose error rather than truth because their unsanctified souls love the darkness rather than the light.


The lawyer who came to Christ with the question, "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" thought to catch Christ, but Jesus laid the burden back upon the lawyer. "What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." Then said Christ, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Luke 10:25-28). These words meet the individual cases of all. Are we willing to comply with the conditions? Will we obey God and keep His commandments? Will we be doers of the Word and not hearers only? God's law is as immutable and unchangeable as His character. Whatever men may say or do to make it void does not change its claims or release them from their obligation to obey.

God will have a people upon the earth who will vindicate His honour by having respect to all of His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous, not a yoke of bondage.


But unfortunately, Israel had failed to fulfill it's divine mission. Thus the Lord declared of this nation,


"I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" Jer. 2:21. "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" Isa. 5:3-7.


This same scene is being repeated in the Christian Church today. Instead of bringing forth the "fruits" of love, which the ten commandments were designed to produce, God's children in new testament times are as an empty vine, devoid of love. Thus they could not bring glory to God, and darkness came out of her instead of light to the world to reflect the holy character of God.


Mt:21:19: And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.


The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel's doom. For this purpose He invested the tree with moral qualities, and made it the expositor of divine truth. The Jews stood forth distinct from all other nations, professing allegiance to God. They had been specially favored by Him, and they laid claim to righteousness above every other people. But they were corrupted by the love of the world and the greed of gain. They boasted of their knowledge, but they were ignorant of the requirements of God, and were full of hypocrisy. Like the barren tree, they spread their pretentious branches aloft, luxuriant in appearance, and beautiful to the eye, but they yielded "nothing but leaves." The Jewish religion, with its magnificent temple, its sacred altars, its mitered priests and impressive ceremonies, was indeed fair in outward appearance, but humility, love, and benevolence were lacking.


Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9.


The warning is for all time. Christ's act in cursing the tree which His own power had created stands as a warning to all churches and to all Christians. No one can live the law of God without ministering to others. But there are many who do not live out Christ's merciful, unselfish life. Some who think themselves excellent Christians do not understand what constitutes service for God. They plan and study to please themselves. They act only in reference to self. Time is of value to them only as they can gather for themselves. In all the affairs of life this is their object. Not for others but for themselves do they minister. God created them to live in a world where unselfish service must be performed. He designed them to help their fellow men in every possible way. But self is so large that they cannot see anything else. They are not in touch with humanity. Those who thus live for self are like the fig tree, which made every pretension but was fruitless. They observe the forms of worship, but without repentance or faith. In profession they honor the law of God, but obedience is lacking. They say, but do not. In the sentence pronounced on the fig tree Christ demonstrates how hateful in His eyes is this vain pretense. He declares that the open sinner is less guilty than is he who professes to serve God, but who bears no fruit to His glory.

 

Hey Claudia

Nice post - except that the urge for human obedience is all through it. Who can live to perfection? The Bible demands perfection.

Jer 17:9 says that we cannot comprehend the evil in the heart - it is far far worse than we could ever imagine. Thus, Isa 64:6 says that even our best of righteous deeds are filthy rags. Rom 3:19 simply condemns all self-obedienced based schemes of pleasing God as errant and condemns all to hell.

Your system makes each one of us the cursed fig tree. Your persuasive system is in all actuality a system of death. Since no one can comply, there is no real hope - only fear. This isn't the gospel message.

I might ask: What are the clauses of the New Covenant that imply conditional obedience? Arguably, there are six or seven of these clauses. None of them have pronouns that refer to human responsibility. Upon which clause do you base your self-righteous system?

Do you know where the clauses are to be found?
I assume that you do because clauses are a most basic business concept that only fools ignore.

Easy question, please answer.
Lloyd

 

quote:
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Also in Matt 18 we see the example of Matt 18 where the FORGIVEN servant experiences "forgiveness REVOKED" for failing to "FORGIVE as HE WAS forgiven".

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Though your post explains WHY you don't like the text of Matt 18 it does not actually quote any of the "disconfirming details" in Matt 18 and SHOW how they can be worked out in favor of OSAS.

Lets deal with "the obvious" in Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The text of Steaver's response above shows all the reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but does nothing to address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

 

There is a huge difference between the ethical gospel and the salvic gospel. The former is the obligation of obedience under the gospel, whilst the latter settles the eternal issue.

Even an evil person has been known to do good things, and contrariwise, the believers have missed the boat altogether eithically.

Cheers,

Jim

One verse or one word in a translation does not a doctrine make.

 

Greetings

The parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Matt 18:23–34) is introduced by the question of Peter, “Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?” (v. 21).

To make the mere act of forgiveness to be equivalent to eternal salvation is likewise all but unpardonable. If the King’s salvation is equal to the salvation of those forgiven, their obligation is to save their debtors by forgiving them.

If your view of this parable is true, we all go to hell. No one is able to perfectly forgive even the least of our offenders. Thankfully, the gospel message of Jesus Christ does not make forgiving others part of saving faith (justification). Forgiving others is part of sanctification.

Parables only have limited value. They cannot be forced beyond what they were intended to teach. Hence, we return to the CONTEXT. Peter asked how often should one forgive his brother? CONTEXT has nothing to do with salvation.

Every one of your suggestions is met and refuted by context. How is it that you so consistently ignore context?

Lloyd

 

So one cannot know for sure if they are saved. One will have to wait until judgment day to see if their heart has passed on the forgiving point.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." (Jeremiah 17:9)

Who knows our true hearts besides the LORD?

One should ask after reading the parable "how can I do this as you demand Lord?"

Who then can be saved? Who then can be forgiven?

With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Therefore, the need for God to intervene through giving a spiritual rebirth.

Once saved through God's regeneration one can now forgive another's trespasses with the power of the blood! No need to worry about falling short anymore! Praise Jesus!

God Bless!