Once Saved, Always Saved

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Acts 1:8, Dec 21, 2002.

  1. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    Salvation is "by faith" (Eph 2:8; 1 Pt 1:5; 1 Jn 5:13; Rom 1:16). Hence the importance of doctrine and John's clear declaration that whosoever "abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God" (2 Jn 1:9). Paul said, "Believe on [rely upon] the Lord Jesus Christ [who He is and what He has done for our salvation], and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). Christ said, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn 6:47) and "shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn 5:24). Those who lack assurance have not believed Christ.

    Well, then, if one is absolutely certain that the moment he dies his soul and spirit will be "absent from the body,... present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8), why is the word "hope" used? "Hope" is not always uncertain. Even dictionaries also define hope as "confidence in a future event; the highest degree of well-founded expectation." Paul explains: "But if we hope for that we see not [i.e., which is future], then do we with patience wait for it" (Rom 8:24-25); the "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Ti 1:2). Nothing could be more certain.

    God's promise is declared to be immutable; that is, unchangeable. God has even confirmed His promise by an oath, swearing by Himself on His own honor. Thus the believer's "hope of salvation," far from being uncertain, is "an anchor of the soul." Consider carefully, and believe, the absolute certainty of God's promise:

    "God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast ." (Heb 6:17-20)

    Those Protestants who deny the doctrine of eternal security, which they disparagingly label "once saved, always saved," are unwittingly clinging to a major Roman Catholic dogma that subverted the Reformation. No Catholic can be certain that he is eternally saved. That is why prayers are offered and masses performed for the dead. However, even confession to a priest for absolution and indulgences offered by the Church are losing their appeal because after being forgiven, a subsequent mortal sin (such as failure to attend mass weekly) nullifies all past forgiveness and leaves one dangling over the flames of hell once again.

    Cardinal Krol, former spiritual leader of Philadelphia's more than a million Roman Catholics, told The Philadelphia Inquirer that his major worries were "My salvation, getting to heaven."7 The Vatican's highest theological authority, Cardinal Ratzinger, expresses the same concern for his salvation. New York's Cardinal O'Connor told The New York Times, "Church teaching is that I don't know, at any given moment, what my eternal future will be. I can hope, pray, do my very best - but I still don't know. Pope John Paul II doesn't know absolutely that he will go to heaven, nor does Mother Teresa of Calcutta...."8 The latter expressed her tenuous hope at the 1993 Presidential Prayer breakfast:

    "One of the most demanding things for me is traveling everywhere - and with publicity. I have said to Jesus that if I don't go to heaven for anything else, I will be going to heaven for all the traveling with all the publicity, because it has purified me and sacrificed me and made me really ready to go to heaven."9

    A medical doctor and lifelong Catholic wrote to Cardinal O'Connor and contrasted his statement of uncertainty about heaven with the absolute assurance the Bible offers to all who will "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31). Said the doctor, "After showing O'Connor's published article and my letter to our parish priest, I was relived of [teaching] my sixth-grade CCD [religion] class.... Once you discover the clear message of the Bible... [it] become a barrier to remaining a Catholic."10

    Anyone, whether Protestant or Catholic, who places his hope for salvation in anything [such as his ability to remain faithful to Christ, good works, sacraments, prayers, or ritual) in addition to Christ's sacrifice of Himself for our sins upon the cross, has not believed Christ's promise. He has rejected God's Word and has denied the gospel. How could anyone who truly understands doubt Christ's ability to save?

    Here are only a few biblical promises: "These things have I written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know [present absolute certainty] that ye have [present possession] eternal life" (1 Jn 5:13); "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (Jn 3:36); "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (Jn 10:27-28). Let us believe His promises, receive His gracious gift, and rejoice in His assurance.

    -Chris

    Source: http://www.raptureme.com/resource/hunt/dh17.html
     
  2. phatmass

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    I guess that's what personal interpretation of Scripture gets you?

    I'm curious... How would you personally interpret this?

    James 2:14-26
    "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO."

    Please. Follow Christ--not Martin Luther. Read the Bible. Pray. Study the history of Christianity. Don't rely on your pastor's teaching. Rely on God's. Christ established a Church and promised it would not be lead astray--that Church is Apostolic, and handed down through the generations. That Church still exists today--it's existed nearly 2000 years. That Church is Catholic.

    God bless.
     
  3. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    That passage does not teach that a man can be saved by works. It simply says that "Faith alone saves, but a faith that saves is never alone" Saving faith shows evidence - "By their fruit you will recognize them" Matthew 7:16

    Ephesians 2:7-10
    7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
     
  4. phatmass

    phatmass
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    Catholics don't believe men can be saved by works. It takes FAITH to be saved. The only difference is that Catholics don't believe in personal interpretation of Scripture.

    "In all [Paul's] letters there are of course some passages which are hard to understand, and these are the ones that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way that they distort the rest of Scripture--to their own destruction" -- 2 Peter 3:11

    It's funny that someone comes and posts a link to this board on my Catholic website, yet, when several Catholics try to come and reply, their registartion gets declined because "only Baptists are allowed to register on the Baptist board".

    It's very sad. I'll continue to pray for all of you fallen away Catholics and hope that someday you will find the fullness of truth found in Christ's one universal, holy, apostolic, church.

    God bless.

    Come register for my board and explain why you disagree with the teachings of Christs church... http://www.phatmass.com/phorum
     
  5. SaggyWoman

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    hmmmm. Maybe this is a theological discussion.

    Elsewhere, please.
     
  6. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
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    phatmass,
    We do allow catholic posts on the Bapt Board, we just do not allow them in the Baptist only areas. I must say that my dad recieved the last rites of the Catholic dogma and the Priest wanting to assure me of a little peace came and told me so at his bedside. He said my dad had made his peace with god. I said, "thank you, now we don't have to worry about purgatory correct?" The priest said,"I didn't say that". Well, to save a lot of rambling from me to get to the end of this story, I witnessed Catholic lies, first hand. My children witnessed the wresting of scripture first hand, and then Praise God (Not the God of the Catholic's), I preached at the graveside when my father was laid down. Many catholics heard the gospel that day and if they do not reject the gospel of a church and accept the Gospel of a Savior, it won't be purgatory for a while, it will be the lake of fire for eternity.

    Thanks ------Bart
     
  7. donnA

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    Catholics don't believe in salvation by works?
    Then maybe someone should tell them that.
    James isn't writting about works needed for salvation, but as a result of salvation. Two totally different things.
     
  8. mountainrun

    mountainrun
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    Most people who quote James to show that salvation is by works neglect to mention the passage in which James says that he shows his faith by his works, which sums up his whole point.

    The Catholics should toss the Catechism if they no longer believe in works.
    It's in there.
    Catechism 2010, I believe.
    Because of the work of Christ, they may merit salvation through good works, etc.

    MR
     
  9. DHK

    DHK
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    Catholics do believe that man is saved by works. I used to be a Catholic. Works is very much emphasized; faith is not. In fact the message of salvation is not emphasized at all in the Catholic Church, much less faith in Christ. What is emphasized (in the realm of faith) is faith in the Catholic Church.
    BTW, why do I only come across your posts in the Baptist Only forums. I spend most of my time in the Other Religions forum where the Catholics are permitted to post, and don't see you there. Why are you posting here?
    DHK
     
  10. mountainrun

    mountainrun
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    I am currently witnessing to a Catholic, Jenny, who believes you must be a good person to go to Heaven and is thinking that she would like to go to a church where all religions are welcome.
    When I mentioned Jesus, the subject was changed.
    I have rarely found a Catholic who gives more that a passing nod to Jesus.
    I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general they are stuck with what their church has taught them.
    Salvation by works.

    Quote from Catechism 2010

    ...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others {sheesh} the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

    Catholics are saved in spite of their Church, not because of it.

    MR
     
  11. Artimaeus

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    I am either saved or I am not, there is no middle ground. You cannot be saved now but might go to heaven or might not. There should never even be a discussion about whether or not you are ALWAYS saved. Saved is by defintion "Not going to hell". If you go to hell you were NEVER saved. Discuss whether you are saved now or not. It is a lot easier discussion and the Bible is very clear on it.
     
  12. postrib

    postrib
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    Some believe there's no way you can lose your salvation. But I personally believe the Bible nowhere teaches that we can't lose our salvation, but even says the opposite (Romans 11:20-22, John 15:6). I believe it says that those sanctified by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:29) and made partakers of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4) and performing miracles in the name of Jesus (Matthew 7:22) can still be damned for unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 7:22-23, 2 Peter 2:20-21), or for apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-6), or for not bearing fruit (John 15:2, Revelation 2:5), or for not overcoming (Revelation 3:5), or for taking away from the words of the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19).

    "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:12-14).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29)

    But where does it say we can't lose it? You could have an everlasting diamond in your pocket, but you could still lose it. What do we do with Hebrews 10:26-31, Hebrews 6:4-8, Romans 11:21-22 and John 15:1-6?

    In John 10:28, Jesus is speaking of those that continue to abide in him, not of those who stop abiding in him: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

    "Thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib

    [ December 28, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: postrib ]
     
  13. mountainrun

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    So, IOW, Jesus only died for our sins if we don't have any?
    Those who believe we lose what God has freely given to those who believe must think salvation is by works.

    I view, in my own personal interpretation, Epeshians as conclusively guaranteeing our eternal security.

    Ephesians 1:4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    5. he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
    6. to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
    7. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
    8. that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.
    9. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
    10. to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
    11. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
    12. in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
    13. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
    14. who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

    There it is, a guarantee from God.
    Most of what people use to spout lost salvation are verses referring to those who were never saved.
    Nowhere does the Bible say you will lose your salvation.
    As seen above, it does guarantee that you WILL be saved.

    MR

    [ December 28, 2002, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: mountainrun ]
     
  14. postrib

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    Only Jesus saves us, but a faith in Jesus without works cannot save us:

    "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14)

    "The devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:19-20)

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

    "I have not found thy works perfect before God" (Revelation 3:2).

    "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away" (John 15:2).

    "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

    Some say that once we're sealed by the Spirit there's no way we can lose our salvation. But isn't every one who has faith in Jesus sealed?

    "After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit" (Ephesians 1:13).

    Weren't the Corinthians and the Romans sealed; didn't they both "stand" by faith?

    "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand" (2 Corinthians 1:22-24).

    "Thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  15. mountainrun

    mountainrun
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    =====
    Quote
    "Thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).
    ========

    The natural branches were the Jewish nation.
    "You" refers to the Gentiles as a whole as well.
    Paul says in verse 13 "I am talking to you Gentiles."
    We know there were individual Jews who were not cut off, though the nation was.
    Paul is cautioning the Gentiles not to risk the same fate and the Isrealites.
    He is not threatening individuals with loss of salvation here.

    MR
     
  16. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    I agree. If one is truly saved, there will be evidence in the works of the person. Possibly not immediately, but it will occur over time as the Holy Spirit convicts and the person grows in the Lord.

    AJL
     
  17. Artimaeus

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    What part of "...hath eternal life." don't you guys understand. Hath = HAS right now. ETERNAL = lasts forever, doesn't end. LIFE = Salvation. Don't make it complicated.
     
  18. mountainrun

    mountainrun
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    Amen. The Bible tells us we have eternal life, not that we will get if we don't mess up.
    Jesus died for all the sins of the world, even the ones that were not committed yet.
    Some posters seem to be confusing a lack of evidence of a saving faith with losing salvation.
    Never having it is not the same a losing it.
    Trust Jesus, people.
    The righteous man will live by faith.

    MR
     
  19. Artimaeus

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    [ December 30, 2002, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Artimaeus ]
     
  20. post-it

    post-it
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    It would be a contradiction to have eternal life then suddenly not have eternal life. If it is possible to lose the status of eternal life then you never had eternal life to begin with, you had only a potential for eternal life subject to additional criteria.

    God's promise is in the here and now, not in the future with a list of additional criteria.
     

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