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Once Saved always Saved

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Eladar, Sep 14, 2001.

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  1. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Tell me the scripture that says that a spirit that is within a person can't be mistaken for the holy spirit, but it really isn't.

    God isn't wrong. The person is wrong. We have an imperfect viewpoint. I can back up this with many scriptures.
     
    #41 Eladar, Sep 18, 2001
  2. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I would like to give my understanding of the parable of the seeds.

    Each type of ground represents a different type of person. The person who rejects God's truth right off the bat, the person who has satan's beliefs in his heart also, the person who's beliefs can't stand the fire of persecution, and the Elect's heart.

    I guess, inorder to answer your question, we would have to determine if the growth of God's truth in a person's heart can only come about by the Holy Spirit. If this is true, then Jesus is teaching us that the Holy Spirit can somehow be replaced in two types of hearts. If not, then these people could either have the Holy Spirit replaced with something else or the Holy Spirit wasn't there at all.

    In any case, Jesus' parable about the seeds tells us that there will be those among the elect who will not be the elect and over a matter of time these people will show themselves.

    You see where I get my ideas. I hope it helps.

    Nils
     
    #42 Eladar, Sep 18, 2001
  3. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Someone remind me what scripture is it that says All the Father has given we will not loose...that has been a solid foundation for me to know I can't loose my salvation.

    Sue
     
    #43 myreflection26, Sep 19, 2001
  4. ddavis

    ddavis New Member

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    Quote by Tuor:
    Tell me the scripture that says that a spirit that is within a person can't be mistaken for the holy spirit, but it really isn't. Quote

    Well when I prayed for the Lord to save me the Holy Spirit indwelled me which that is proven by a persons fruit, is it not? Also look at the people in the Bible that had a different spirit in them before they were saved and you will notice a change. BTW I believe that once a person is born again they CAN NOT be possessed by a different spirit. Scripture says we are “seal until the day of redemption”.
    You haven’t answered my question though, which scripture shows “the Holy Spirit” leaving a person that has been saved. I have ask this question to many who believe that you can lose your salvation ( some in my own family who are Free Will Baptist) but like yourself they answer it with another question instead. I believe eternal security to be a Baptist Distinctive because no other denomination believes in it that I know of.
     
    #44 ddavis, Sep 19, 2001
  5. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
    Quote by Tuor:
    I believe eternal security to be a Baptist Distinctive because no other denomination believes in it that I know of.    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually, every Calvinist believes in eternal security, the P of TULIP, standing for Preservation of the Saints (not perseverence, although true saints do peresevere, it is God alone who preserves them.)

    So it is not a Baptist distinctive, but a biblical one, shared by Evangelical Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Protestant Reformed, and any other Calvinistic believers.

    What is a Baptist distinctive is believing in eternal security while illogically rejecting the ULI of TULIP! :eek:
     
    #45 Chris Temple, Sep 19, 2001
  6. david reed

    david reed New Member

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    Hey Chris,
    I can accept the T. Man, I know how depraved I was before the Lord saved me, but
    the L and the I scare me to death. Limited
    Attonement? In the Light of John 3:16? I don't think so. Irresistable Grace? Prayerfully read and study Hebrews 6 and then
    get back to me. ;) ;) ;)
     
    #46 david reed, Sep 19, 2001
  7. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by david reed:
    Hey Chris,
    I can accept the T. Man, I know how depraved I was before the Lord saved me, but
    the L and the I scare me to death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then the U (unconditional election) must scare you as well, but you've already said the Lord saved you. Why should irresistible grace scare you? I find it much more scary to think that totally depraved sinners can resist God's effectual call of the elect.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Limited Attonement? In the Light of John 3:16? I don't think so. Irresistable Grace? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Limited atonement (a bad name, I grant you; definite atonement is much better) answers the question why are all men not saved if all have been atoned for? As it says in Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
    26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
    27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish."

    Jn 3:16 is no answer against limited atonement; limited atonement answers the question of who it is that believes in Him and should not perish but have everlasting life.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Prayerfully read and study Hebrews 6 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Already have. I have never heard an Arminian give an adequate answer to Heb 6; only Calvinists have sufficiently answered that alleged problem. ;)

    To avoid protracted arguments, see the very long thread Freewill and Predestination

    [ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
    #47 Chris Temple, Sep 19, 2001
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Once saved always saved.
    Rom.8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"
    --Does the Spirit that dwells in you bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?

    1 Jn. 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
    --Do you have the Son or not? There is no in between, no sitting on the fence.

    1 Jn. 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
    --There's no guessing here. That ye may "know" that ye have eternal life.

    Jer. 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
    --Only God knows the heart. It is not for you and me to judge. I cannot tell whether you (no offense intended) are saved or not. Only you know that. It is between you and God. I know of a Bible College student who went through four years at MBBC then in the week of her graduation she got saved. No one would have ever guessed that she was not saved before that. How do we know who is the elect and who is not? We do not. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
    --On the other hand, using a Biblical example, who would have ever thought that a man who offered his two daughters to vile, wicked men to be abused sexually all night by homosexual men, would be a saved man? This same man led out of the city by angelic beings, whom he knew were angels, went reluctantly, not completely obeying the angels. Yet the New Testament declares "that just man Lot." According to the Word of God, he was saved. Had he been in my church, I would not have considered such a man saved. But the Lord knows them that are His. It is not for us to worry about who the elect is and who is not. If your unsure preach the gospel to them. It can't hurt. I must simply make sure that I am saved, and once I am, I am saved for all eternity.
    DHK
     
    #48 DHK, Sep 19, 2001
  9. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Who delclares she got saved? It is all people making statements that they have no control over. I am saved because I say so. Because I say the right things I am saved and I must go to heaven.

    You asked for scripture, I give you Jesus' very words and still that is not good enough. There will be those who believe they are saved, but are not. It is a Biblical fact. Even if you are unwilling to accept this truth, doesn't make it less true.

    Life is seen as a race, which is not won until it is finished. Just as Jesus said as He he was killed on the cross, "it is finished."

    As I have said many many many times, we are instructed that the fate of the elect is sealed. Where in the Bible does it say that the elect know who they are saved?
     
    #49 Eladar, Sep 19, 2001
  10. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    I John 2:12 ¶ I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
    13 I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.
    14 I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
     
    #50 Chris Temple, Sep 19, 2001
  11. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Matthew 7
    21
    "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


    Matthew 13
    20
    ""The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
    21
    yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
    22
    ""And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

    1 John 2
    19
    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
     
    #51 Eladar, Sep 19, 2001
  12. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

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    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
     
    #52 Psalm145 3, Sep 20, 2001
  13. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Tuor, you have a slight problem with how you perceive Matthew 7:21.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Put it in context by looking at verse 22. Your statement "There will be those who believe they are saved, but are not" is in error; there are those that believe they are saved by their works, or because they "filled in the blocks"; THOSE people are the ones like the seed that fell among the rocks, and the thorns. They're not trusting fully in Christ as the author and finisher of their salvation.

    It's cool to do works in His name; but as my pastor said the other night (please forgive me if I'm repeating myself), you can be as doctrinally straight as a rifle barrel, and just as hollow.

    Or as a friend of mine showed us in a devotion: He gave one of us a trick birthday candle, and the another of us a huge tabletop candle, and asked them to light their candles. Then he asked them to blow them out. The person with the trick birthday candle did as he was asked; the person with the huge candle looked at him funny for a minute, and then finally said, "My candle doesn't have a wick." Some of us are like that tabletop candle; we're "bigger" than the other Christians around, but we have no wick, no core. And some of us are like that trick birthday candle; we may be really, really "small," but no matter how hard you try, you can't blow us out.

    Just food for thought.
     
    #53 Don, Sep 20, 2001
  14. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Tuor, I just went back and found a couple of your other posts.

    In your description of the parable of the seeds, you stated exactly what I was saying (albeit, you stated it much more succinctly).

    And as for Blanchard--I'm familiar with the area. I spent my high school years in the Ardmore-Durant area. My family moved to the Newcastle-Tuttle area after I left for college.
     
    #54 Don, Sep 20, 2001
  15. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Put it in context by looking at verse 22. Your statement "There will be those who believe they are saved, but are not" is in error; there are those that believe they are saved by their works, or because they "filled in the blocks"; THOSE people are the ones like the seed that fell among the rocks, and the thorns. They're not trusting fully in Christ as the author and finisher of their salvation.

    Don,
    Where does the Bible say this? The reason given is that they did not do the will of God.

    Now the question is what is the will of God? According to Paul, at least part of it entails living according to the spirit as opposed to the flesh:

    Galatians 5
    19
    Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
    20
    idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
    21
    envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    23
    gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
    24
    Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
     
    #55 Eladar, Sep 20, 2001
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Matthew 7:21
    "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
    "Don,
    Where does the Bible say this? The reason given is that they did not do the will of God."

    Perhaps the better question would be what is the will of the Father?
    John 6:28,29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    --The will of the Father is to believe on Christ whom the Father has sent. There are no works here.
     
    #56 DHK, Sep 20, 2001
  17. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Then why does it say in 1 John that those who left -- after being a part of them -- are not saved? Their action of leaving is a sign that they are not saved.

    Works don't save. Works are the fruit of the heart. Without works, the heart is wrong. Works don't save, the heart is what saves. Jesus says this, Paul says this, James says this, John says this. It is throughout the New Testament.

    Did you even read my quote from Galatians 5? Paul expressly tells us not to fool ourselves, people who live like this will not go to heaven. Yes, as a result of how they live, their heart is revealed and such a person will not go to heaven.

    Perhaps you just don't believe Paul, or just don't want to see what he says.

    Beware of those who teach a doctrine other than is in the Scriptures.

    Why is it such a difficult concept to grasp? Actions don't save, but the actions are the fruits of your heart. Therefore the actions are something that we should take into condsideration, especially actions of the flesh. Heed Paul's warning in Galatians 5.

    [ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #57 Eladar, Sep 20, 2001
  18. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Tuor, change your frame of mind.

    We're NOT disagreeing with you for the most part; in fact, what comes from you sounding like you're trying to correct us, for the most part only reinforces what ALL of us are trying to say.

    I'm to the point where I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread....
     
    #58 Don, Sep 21, 2001
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    We are asking the Tuor and others who are non-baptists to please abide by the rules to which they agreed and post only in the non-baptist forums.

    Any further posts in the Baptist only area will lead to "termination" -- and I have that steely George W look in my eyes as I say that word! :eek:

    Seriously, thanks for cooperating!
     
    #59 Dr. Bob, Sep 22, 2001
  20. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    The problem I see is exactly what is the will of God. Jesus tells the parable about two children who are asked by their father to do some work. One said yes father, but didn't do it. The other one said no, but then did it. Jesus then asked who actually did his father's will. The answer was the one who said no, but then did it.

    Does this have anything to do with once saved always saved? Does this have anything to do with defining what is God's will and who is actually doing it?
     
    #60 Eladar, Sep 25, 2001
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