Once saved always saved !!!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by fatbacker, Oct 12, 2005.

  1. fatbacker

    fatbacker
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    I am an active member in a SBC but I am not really a firm believer in once saved always saved, but what I believe is not really the issue.
    Here is the story. We were in Sunday school a couple of weeks ago and OSAS came up shortly before the class ended. The following week the teacher asked the preacher come in and give a two week course on the subject because I am assuming she felt it was a major important issue, I don't.
    The problem I have is that of the three Sunday school teachers we have none have never brought up the importance of fellowship or accountability to each other or the need to keep in contact with each other after Sunday is over which to me supercedes the need to discuss OSAS in class.
    My struggles are not on Sunday and needing Baptist indoctrination, but whether or not my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are willing to call me up here and there to see how my spiritual life is doing and not waiting until Sunday to catch up.
    Here is my question if you have made it this far. What is more important to you, being concerned about whether or not your brother or sister in Christ agrees with some Baptist doctrine (I do believe in the virgin birth, death on the cross and ressurection) or whether or not the deeper daily (Sunday-Saturday)spiritual needs are being met?
    When is the last time you called a person you don't really know in your Sunday school class or pew buddy on Sunday just to see how they are getting along? Sunday doesn't count. [​IMG]
    My thoughts are you should first be concerened about whether or not they are really saved and then how their daily walk is going and very last thing of all which should have no baring on how you feel about someone is whether or not they agree with all of the church doctrine that has virtually nothing to do with the basic fundamentals of being saved. Because if you are once saved always saved then it shouldnt matter anyway right?
     
  2. Plain Old Bill

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    I see your point. But you could help yourself.Most SBC churches have Sunday evening and Wednesday evening services.Many have Tuesday or Thursday night visitation.There are also many other functions taking place in most SBC churches you could join in. You could make friends with some of the folks at church, invite them out for lunch after church and give them a chance to get to know you.People have a hard time second guessing others and thier needs or desires. There are some who come to church and Sunday school who do not want to be bothered during the week and consider it intrusive to be called or visited during the week.If there is a coffee or fellowship time after church you might want to start there.In any event you are always welcome here on the board.
     
  3. StraightAndNarrow

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    OSAS is not a minor theologigal issue. You mentioned being concerned about a fellow Christian's daily walk. That's basically what OSAS is NOT concerned about. We're talking about whether or not you will enter the kingdom of heaven. Is that important to you?
     
  4. Thankful

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    I don't know how one could compare Once Saved Always Saved with lack of fellowship. Perhaps I don"t understand the problem.

    Are you concerned because no one calls you during the week? Or visits you during the week?

    Do you think that they are demonstrating that they are not saved if they don't visit others?

    If a person is concerned all the time about whether they are saved or not, then they probably would be more concerned about themselves than others.

    I think I may have missed the point of the OP.
     
  5. ptl4evr

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    I don't buy into the whole OSAS argument and I don't beleive that one can really know if someone is really saved or not. Only God knows our hearts. I think what you should concern yourself with is how is your brothers and sisters walk with God. Are they reading the bible, attending church, bearing the correct fruit(yes I mean works) these are the outward signs of salvation. If you see someone going to the wayside it is our job to encourage hem and pray for them.
     
  6. JackRUS

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    I believe that OSAS is important because it directly reflects on the character of God.

    In Mt. 7:11 Jesus says that human parents are "evil" in comparison to God. Yet many still claim that He dispossesses His children for some infraction.

    Also having real security of salvation is important. Not the false security that the unsaved religious person has. But rather good death-bed security that the Lord is coming for us some day.

    And I disagree with the above poster. I know that I have eternal life. 1 John 5:12-13.

    And Rom. 8:14 and 1 John 3:14 are other tests for one's self and others concerning the born again experience. And at our church we ask for a testimony from anyone that wants to join our membership. 2 Cor. 5:17
     
  7. fatbacker

    fatbacker
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    I don't know how one could compare Once Saved Always Saved with lack of fellowship. Perhaps I don"t understand the problem.

    Are you concerned because no one calls you during the week? Or visits you during the week?

    My concern is that some doctrines hold higher priority than fellowship. The men in my church have been willing to help with somethings I have started but none were willing to commit a definite amount of time and I could not do it alone

    The fact is I am new to not just the SBC but to the south period and I have never met a bunch of people who are so close minded to allowing outsiders in, yet OSAS is a topic that has taken top priority.

    And without sounding to selfish yes part of it is that no one calls or stops by to see how me and my family are doing and this has been going on for sometime. I had decided to go look for another church and then a few people had called and stopped by but that ended as soon as I went back to my church routine. Not one person has called or stopped by. But low and behold a little doctrinal difference arises where there really was no argument and the preacher is in our room for two sunday school sessions.
    I myself find no reason to discuss the issue in a Baptist Church because I know what the SBC teaches and that is fine with me I will in no way cause any disruption or diversity in the church because of what I think, God would not approve of that very much.

    My question really is why are more SB concerned about doctrine then whether or not someone is getting along in their spiritual walk or praying more together as groups outside of Sunday and Wednesday services.

    And to JACKRUS, I am totally secure in my salvation and in no ways feel like God would ever reject me or take back what He has given me.

    And to Plain Old Bill I have tried to start a couple of things outside of the normal church times for the men in our church and most think its great but none have been willing to say to me I will be commited with this for a definite amount of time. I realize I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me I believe He does it by bringing other commited people in our paths to help His cause. But because the burden of having to ask different people every month to help because no one would commit got to be such a burden I grew very spiritually tired and failed. I guess if your OSAS holds high priority then no need for earthly commitments because we are all going to heaven anyway.

    I suppose in a way I am venting but I am also have been begging God to make some sense of this southern mentality that I cannot grasp.
     
  8. DeeJay

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    It sounds like you have become a firm believer since your original post. [​IMG]

    Sunday school is for learning theology. Fellowship, Christian brotherhood, may be subjects but nothing is as important as salvation and subjects related to salvation.

    It sounds like you want to be in charge of what the class learns and foceses on. The teacher is that athority in the class room. I would submit to his athority and learn what he has been led to teach.

    As for nobody stoping by and calling, they should be. But what I would do is look for things you can do for people in your class. Model the behavior you want to see in them. Call one of them now and ask how they are doing. Bake cookies and bring it to them. In other words treat them how you want to be treated. Don't wait for them, take the initative in the relationships.
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    Fatbacker wrote,

    I believe that modern theology contradicts the Word of God and that it is therefore an abomination. Therefore, I believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a doctrine from hell.

    I also believe that OSAS is a doctrine from hell because the Bible not only does not teach it—the Bible teaches conditional security so very clearly that conditional security was the universal belief of the Church for 1500 years! Anyone who has studied New Testament theology is very much aware of this fact and it is no wonder that those who hold to the OSAS point of view are extremely defensive about their position and insist upon teaching and preaching it no matter the cost to their brothers and sisters in Christ.

    There is, of course, a place for theology, but when that theology is limited to text books and sermons and is not lived in the lives of people it is next to worthless. Indeed, I very seldom talk about theology with my Christian friends because both of us have needs and interests that transcend religious dogma.

    Some Baptists are so wrapped up in Baptist theology that they care more about the mode of baptism than they do about their Christian friends who have been baptized but who are in need of the loving support of their Christian friends. Christians do not commit suicide because their doctrine regarding the mode of baptism is a bit off, but Christians do commit suicide because their friends are so wrapped up in Baptist dogma that they don’t even notice the pain and loneliness in their brother’s or sister’s face.

    I have friends in many different denominations, but we don’t care nearly so much about our personal theologies as we do about each other and our relationship with God. Indeed, compared to our relationships with each other and with God, theology is of little importance. God does not care so very much about the details of our theology, but He cares very much about the details of our relationships.

    Fatbacker, do you have any needs that you would like for me to pray about? Is there anything that you would like to talk about or share with me? There is something that I would like to share with you.

    There is a very needy family living in my vacation home because they can not afford a place to live. Their kids are now going to really good charter schools nearby and are making rapid progress academically. And most important of all, this family is now going to church and growing in Christ. And along with their growing in Christ, God is blessing them with opportunities to be lifted out of poverty! But of course, they are finding some resistance from the enemy, and they would be pleased if you would pray for them.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. DeeJay

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    From hell, this is like calling everybody you dont agree with politicaly nazi. Just because you dont agree with a doctrin does not mean it is "from hell". I am sure you disagree with this doctrin based on the mis-reprisentation of it by its critics. That mis-reprisentation of " you can do anything you want because you are already saved"

    This is not the doctrin of OSAS and nobody who beleves in OSAS would say that. But you seem to have your mind set in stone about the issue, so no need to discuss it here. You disagree with my doctrin notice I do not say you or your belefes are "from hell".


    This applies to some people of any group and religion. But you seem to have a grudge against Baptists for some reason. I find most Baptists to be extreamly careing and loving of one another. Maybe I am blessed with an increadable church, but I have seen great love shown to each other especaly in some hardships some members have had reacently. I pray you will find a church with members as careing as I have been blessed with.
     
  11. Roguelet

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    fatbacker I know it is very frustrating to not have Gods family respond in the way you expect them to, to not reach out and show they care.

    I have learned through my many years of being a christian that when I do this i do not have my focus where it should be on God and serving others. it is on myself.

    We are living in a day where people do not trust each other as much and where people are so caught up in their own little world, tv's,computers, kids and thier activities, families, jobs etc. that we have lost what it means to be a community and putting relationships first and foremost.

    When I grew up we actually knew our neighbors and did things with them. camping, fishing, parties, dinners, cup of coffee. Kids all got together and played ball and a lot of out door sports. someone would move in and you would be greeted or you would greet them with a pie and a friendly hello. Not anymore. now that i am older, I find I would still try and be the friendly one even when it was us who move in, but it doesn't happen the otherway around hardly at all.

    Another problem is everyone is so transet these days no one stays in a community for very long anymore. that doesn't help.

    My suggestion would be, as i have done that you be the one to do the outreaching. Always be friendly and serve as unto the Lord. That is what is really going to count in the end. Us glorifying God and serving him. Anything we do in the flesh and out of selfish motives will all be burned up. What is done through Christ will be what matters in the end.
     
  12. fatbacker

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    "It sounds like you have become a firm believer since your original post.

    Sunday school is for learning theology. Fellowship, Christian brotherhood, may be subjects but nothing is as important as salvation and subjects related to salvation."

    DeeJay, I have been a firm believer in Christ for 15 years and have at times questioned Gods where abouts but never about my salvation. I also have no need to be in charge of what is taught in Sunday school class but Jesus was always about the people and His concern for them was, His whole mission He was not about the Doctrine although He obeyed the law to the last letter which is seperate from doctrine, He was about forgiving, healing, teacing, compassion,being a friend to sinners, obeying the law and many other things but never have I read about Jesus getting on His soap box about doctrine.

    And yes I have called people to see how they are doing I brought them fruits and veggies out of my garden to show my friendship without any expectations of something in return but if they cant pick up on the small jesture of friendship and return it then my only conclusion, which I have come to, is that they really dont care about me and yet again we have to pound in your head OSAS is so important. Jesus rebuked the religious leaders for pulling stuff out of their hats and making it more than what it was intended to be and making it law and it was a must believe or your not obeying God.

    Jesus said that if you acknowledge Me before men then I will acknowledge you before my Father, but if you deny Me before men I will deny you before my Father. If I get saved and immediately go tell everyone I know about Jesus I know what Jesus will be doing, but when a few years go by and things don't go perfect and I start to get angry with God and spew profanities to Him and about Him I know what Jesus will then do. The problem I here from OSAS people is that how could you do that once your saved, who would want to? I think their problem is they cannot phathom it so therefor it cant happen even though we here about how God's riches are beyond comprehension, well, so is the evil of the human heart. "Above all else the heart is desperately wicked all the time."

    Jesus was always concerned about our well being and our spiritual needs and also about how we lived our daily lives and that is what we need to hear in Sunday school class well before we get our feathers in a ruffle over OSAS. Lets do more of the first and then the later should be just a tiny thought in the back of our heads.
     
  13. fatbacker

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    One more thing DeeJay, when your pretty sure that everyone in the room is saved then I am sorry but there is little need for salvation doctrine to be taught in Sunday school every Sunday, the preacer does plenty of that in Sunday service. If your in Sunday school class you should be getting the meat not the milk and deeper things should be going on in Sunday school. It should always be Christ like but more than the same basic message every week.
     
  14. jw

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    1. It's not "Baptist doctrine" it's "Bible doctrine".

    2. Comparing the two is kind of like apples and oranges.

    They are both very important. Bad doctrine can lead you into all sorts of problems.
     
  15. fatbacker

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    Hey JW, no where in the bible are the words once saved always saved so it is Baptist doctrine. You show me the specific scripture where OSAS is used in a sentence then I will post an apology to that statement.
     
  16. Brother Ian

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    I believe once you are saved you are always saved. Your life should reflect your development and relationship to Christ.

    I find it intersting that I have never met anyone that beleives you can lose your salvation that has actually lost it and then got it back. No one can provide any Scriptural evidence of what would constitute a loss of salvation. Is it any sin? (I sin, I repent, I get saved again. . . .)Additionally, these folks don't require baptism "again" that is supposed to follow salvation. Why the difference?

    I know there are more inconsistencies but I thought I'd givea quick response.

    To answer the OP, discipleship is something severely lacking in the church today. It is up to all of us to maintain accountability with each other.
     
  17. fatbacker

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    This may or may not be off topic But the IBC and the SBC did not split over Bible doctrine or any other church for that matter, They all split because they read a few verses interpreted it they way they wanted too and made it their own doctrine and gathered unto themselves the people of the same mind. If a church splits over doctrine then someone has to be wrong and I am pretty sure that both sides will continue to claim their side is more valid than the next. So it is church doctrine not bible doctrine, people don't split up over bible doctrine. God's word is always right it's our interpretation that gets messed up.
     
  18. jw

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    No where in the Bible is the word "trinity" used, but it is a Bible Doctrine.
    No where in the Bible is the word "rapture" used, but it is a Bible doctrine.

    We have a lot of words and phrases we use to describe doctrines that are in the Bible.

    If you want to learn about the doctrine of eternal security, I would love to discuss that with you.
     
  19. Artimaeus

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    As soon as someone can figure out how to change the past then I might consider the idea of losing your salvation. I can't change last Thursday. I can't change November 26, 1971. No one has the power or ability to not drop the bomb on Hiroshima in 1945.
     
  20. fatbacker

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    Brother Ian,

    I have never said that anyone could lose your salvation, that implies miss placing it. I do however believe that you can reject salvation once you have asked for it and God being faithful to His word giving you your salvation. I will never believe that God will take back what He has given especially when salvation is a gift. But rejecting God is two words I have never heard a OSAS advocate use when discussing the subject.

    They say how could ever reject God once you have recieved it? To consider doing such a thing is unthinkable and utterly unphatomable to understand how someone could do such a thing, but is it impossible to reject not lose what God has given? People say that they were never really saved but thats just away of further saying once you accept Gods GIFT that you are forced to keep it. I believe that they just don't want to believe that could happen.
     

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