Once saved always saved !!!

I'm sorry I don't have the verse that speaks of this exactly, but the Bible says if you are truly saved, you would never willingly "give" it back or reject Christ. I'll have to get back to you on the address of the verse.

 

The *term* is made up, the *doctrine* is not. Actually "eternal security" is not a doctrine, "Soteriology" is the doctrine. "the Trinity" is not techinically a doctrine either, it falls under "Theology Proper".

They are both part of the respective doctrines. To imply they are "church" doctrines means they didn't come from the Bible, they came from men. "Papal infallability" is a *church* doctrine. KJVO'ism is a *church/cult* doctrine. "Soteriology" is a Bible doctrine. We might disagree one what is included in the study of Salvation, but that doesn't mean it isn't a Biblical doctrine. Someone is right and someone is wrong on the issue, and we can only go to the Bible to find out who it is.

 

How can one reject what has happened in the past? It has already happened. I got saved. It isn't like a pencil that you can lose or throw away. It is something that happened to you. That can never change.

You cannot, by changing your mind, change what has already happened. "rejecting God" sounds like you have the power to change the past but you don't. The regeneration that you experienced is still something that you experienced and no matter what we think, we cannot change the fact that we were regenerated.

 

Fatbacker if the Holy spirit comes into you when you get saved how do you get him out again ?
I never heard that one. The bible says " we are sealed with the Holy Spirit "

 

Explain the parable of the ten virgins who go to meet the bridegroom. Had the bridegroom come before the first five turned back they would have all went to the wedding. Five turned back and were locked out forever. Doesn't sound like osas to me?

 

Fatbacker

Quenching the spirit means the Holy Spirit is in you but he doesn't have control of you.

Blaspheme the Holy Spirit means you go against truth of Gods word. Like rejecting Gods word when being witness to. Or saying something contray to his truth.

Your analogy of the child parent relationship sounds good but isn't realistic. God is way beyond our understanding and our ways. His love is greater than our love. He loves us unconditionally ours sad to say sometimes isn't.

If someone leaves God forever I would question if they were really saved in the first place. Jesus said many will say Lord Lord didn't we do all these things in your name, and he says depart from me I never knew you.

And no one knows that persons heart, or that they ever left God. I don't know anyone myself who said they were a true believer who says he isn't anymore. I know people who may not live the way we think they should but they still say they are saved and abswer all the questions right. Gods timing isn't our timing, who are we to say when God will not draw a person back into fellowship with him ?

Gods in control of keeping us not ourselves, 1 Cor 1:8, Jude :24.

Eternal life means forever and ever.
The bible say no man or anything shall snatch you out of your fathers hand not even ourselves.

[ October 14, 2005, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Roguelet ]

 

Sounds like pride to me. God did it all, all to him to him i owe.

Fatbacker if you believe you can lose your salvation than your motivation is driven to serve God by fear and works. OSAS motivation is the way God planned, we are motivated by love for what God has done in our lives and what he has saved us from.

How do you witness if you have no hope ? Kind of hard isn't it ? "Hey you should come to Christ he will give you eternal life. But hey not really ( just kidding ) if you walk away it isn't eternal no more ". Yeah that makes sense.

1 John 5:13 says " I have written these things unto you so that you may KNOW you have eternal life ".

 

Fatbacker: //If your in Sunday school class
you should be getting the meat not the milk and deeper thing
should be going on in Sunday school.//

Amen, Brother Fatbacker -- Preach it!
I've taught Sunday School for more than half of the 46 years
since i first taught Sunday School. Probably for about 36 or 37
of those years.

What you say reminds me of a scripture:
Hebrews 6:1-6. The author of Hebrews says he would like to
go beyond the basics (which are specified) and then starts talking
about Salvation Security, also called (in KJV1769 terms) 'perfection'.
But sometimes that KJV1769 uses words different then we use it now.
We are not talking 'perfection' = 'without flaw' here, we are
talking 'perfection' = 'completion'. So this lesson is on the
doctrine of 'perfection' AKA: 'The Doctrine of Salvation Security'.

A. But first let us list from Hebrews 6:1-2 the baby step Doctrines
(again, the language of the KJV1769 is used):

1. repentance from dead works
2. faith toward God
3. the doctrine of baptisms
3. laying on of hands
4. resurrection of the dead
5. eternal judgement

I beleive 'and' in these verses refers to different
sets of doctrines (teachings). The word 'and' can mean
other stuff.
Does a difference in the meaning of 'and' change theology?
You bet it does. Yet each of us figures out thier own meaning
of each 'and'.

Fatbacker: //Once again JW the trinity is church doctrine and not bible doctrine
I am a firm believer in the trinity but man made the term up
not God so therefore it is accepted church doctrine.//

Ah Ha! I see your problem: you confuse a name and its
doctrine (or should that be this?: 'you confuse a doctrine and its name'.)

I've got a doctrine for you:
It is called 'perfection' (completition) in Hebrews 6:1.
It is called 'OSAS' = Once Saved, Always Saved by some Baptists.
It is called 'Security Salvation' by other Baptists,
---or "Eternal Security of the Believer"
It is called 'confession is made unto salvation' in Romans 10:10.

Fatbacker: //If a church splits over
doctrine then someone has to be wrong ... //

Here is the fallacy of your argument. You have stated but one of
three posibilities:

1. Both parties are right
2. Both parties of wrong
3. one party is right; one party is wrong

I note here (seriously) that the statement:
--If a church splits over doctrine then someone has to be wrong.//
is negative and this statement is positive:
--If a church splits over doctrine then someone has to be wrong.//
I note, Brother Fatbacker, that you said the negative statement
instead of the positive statement. Is someone going to be upset I
said that? I am NOT judging. Judging says: because it is better
to be positive than it is to be negative I FIND FATBACKER guilty.
Caveat: i do not think Bro. Fatbacker to be guilty of anything
other that expressing negatively that which can be expressed positive.

Flatbacker: //OSAS is such that it really does not matter what you do
because you will go to heaven.//

This statement is made only by people who think
OSAS = Old snakes accuse salvation.

As for folks visiting me when i'm sick at home.
Here is a bit of my whine:
I have been a member of my local church since June 1973.
I've been a member of my local church for 32 years.
My two Children were saved and baptized there.
My Mother married a Deacon there.
I buried my first wife there (note for literalist: I buried
my first wife in a cemetary, the church service was a memoral service).
The preacher there married me to my second wife.

I tithed 10% of the gross there out of the first Million Dollars I
made at my current job. I spent an average of 9 hours a week there
9 hours/week x 50 weeks/year x 32 years = 14,400 hours
which at $30 per hour is worth $430,000. So i've given over
half a million dollars worth of money and labor at this local
baptist church.

Nobody will come by and visit me at home, hardly anyone will
check to see if i am sick or not. However, i hope someone might
visit me if I'm sick in the hospital. I know I was sick in the
hospital overnight back in 1976 and someone from the church came
to visit me. It was a Guy named Steve who was later made a deacon
(even though he married a woman who had been divorced, it was his
first marriage). He came to visit, not knowing what to say, he
wisely said nothing (he was a good visitor )

 

But first let us list from Hebrews 6:1-2 the baby step Doctrines
(again, the language of the KJV1769 is used):

1. repentance from dead works
2. faith toward God
3. the doctrine of baptisms
3. laying on of hands
4. resurrection of the dead
5. eternal judgement

(I got sidetracked here before)

Hebrews 6:3-6 is the kingpin of the Security Salvation Doctrine.
Unfortunately, not only do most people not know how to read
the KJV (or how to use 'thou' and 'thy' in their prayer language)
but they don't know enough logic to break their way out of
a paper bag. The type logic used here is called Proof by Contridiction.

You make an assumption.
You show by logic that that assumption leads to a contridiction.
*Therefore the contridiciton proves that the assumption is false.
(You cannot prove an assumption is true by this method, only
that it is false.

*I starred this part of the logic, for this is all the logical
expression found in Hebrews 6:3-6. The rest of the logical expression
is not in the final product.

The assumption made in Hebrews 6:4-6. (words are used from the KJV1769)

Assume that there is one who was once
enlightened, who had tasted of the heavenly gift, who was made
a partaker of the Holy Ghost, who had tasted the good word of God,
and who had tasted the powers of the world to come.
Assume they fall away.
Then it would be necessary to renew themselves again unto repentance.
Then it would be necessary to crucify for themselves only
the Son of God afresh. Then that would put Christ to open shame again.

This is contradictory and makes no sense. Christ will not be put to
open shame. Christ will not be cruified anew for one person's sin.
The person cannot renew themselves again unto repentance.

QED:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV1769 Edition):
It is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavnly gift, and were made
partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tested the good word of God, and the powers
of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance,
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

This is the true doctrine of the Security of the Believer straight
from the Bible. Note that this Doctrine does not disagree with
John 3:16 'that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.

While we have free will as a lost person, as soon as Jesus
saves us through our repentance and belief; then we are not
free to revoke that salvation nor or we free to act like the devil's
slave. Instead, we who are ONCE SAVED will act like a good slave
of our blessed Lord and Master and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amen!

Fatbacker: //He was about forgiving, healing, teacing, compassion,being a friend
to sinners, obeying the law and many other things but never have
I read about Jesus getting on His soap box about doctrine.//

Sigh! I guess i need to learn to skip the long sentences.
This sentence says to me:

Jesus was always practicing the doctrine of forgiving,
practicing the doctrine of healing,
teaching doctrine,
practicing the doctrine of compassion,
practicing the doctrine of friendship,
practicing the doctrine of obeying the law.
I have never never about Jesus every getting off His
soap box about doctrine. Jesus even died to
mangify His soap box of Doctrine.

Fatbacker: //Hey JW, no where in the bible are the words once saved always saved
so it is Baptist doctrine. You show me the specific scripture where
OSAS is used in a sentence then I will post an apology to that statement.//

Unfortunately this tells me that you have no problem DEMANDING
of God Almighty that God All Giving give us the exact words we
would like to see in the Holy Written Word of God, the Bible.
Sorry, pot, but you will NOT get very far critiquing the potter.

Brother Ian: //I believe once you are saved you are always saved. Your life should
reflect your development and relationship to Christ.//

Amen, Brother 'Brothe Ian' -- Preach it!

Brother Ian: //I find it intersting that I have never met anyone that beleives you
can lose your salvation that has actually lost it and then got it back.//

Did you ever read a 'plan of unsalvation'?
I like to look at the word pictures in the Bible of salvation.

Just 'salvation', yep maybe you can use it.

But one picture of salvation is 'born again'.
How do you get un-born-again?

One picture of salvation is being adopted into the family of God.
How do you get un-adopted?

One picture of salvation is being born into the family of God.
how to you get un-'born into the family of God'.

One picture of salvation is putting on white robes of righteousness.
Does God run a strip joint?

One picture of salvation is joining the bride of Christ.
How do you un-marry Christ?

One picture of salvation is being 'sealed with the Holy Spirit'.
How do you get un-sealed?

Yep, there is no 'plan of un-salvation'.


Artimaeus: //You cannot, by changing your mind, change what has already happened.
"rejecting God" sounds like you have the power to change the past
but you don't.//

Amen, Brother Artimaeus -- Preach it!

 

Dr. Edwards, that's what I call really forkin' a horse and ridin' it all the way back to the corral. You arrr-ticc- cuuu- late so well and take out the fat tick (unsalvation)and the question to be ask is "ar u late?" with your answer? What would we do without you here on the board? Even when you give a straight answer you bowl me over. I would like to meet you one day and palaver, I could say that I have been to the EDEDWARDS school of theology and then somebody could make me a doctor. No foolin' your answer was great and I wonder, wonder who wrote the book of "unsalvation"? Once again, it just kills me!
Thanks so very much ------Bart

 

Thank you Brother Bart.

Here are my favorite Plans of Un-salvation:

The AoG*/Jimmy Swagart Shuttle
The Free Will Baptist/un-Roman road.
The Baptist 1963 Un-faith and Un-message
The Baptist 2000 Un-faith and Un-message
The Fifth Spiritual Law

* Back when i smoked i was the guy who
carried the other end of the console TV
(TV Repairman's Helper).
The TV repair-person was Assembly of
God (AoG). One Monday when i got there
for my afternoon (I was going to college
and only worked half a day) he was all up
cause he had got saved: 'for the third time'.
Then he started in on me to get me to quit
smoking. He quit smokin', quit drinkin',
nigh as much as some folks i've known getting
saved for the first time
Well anyway, according to him you can't
lose (inadvertednly misplace) your salvation
but you can give it up.

 

Fatbacker, I think I understand what you are saying now.

Actually, I wish my Sunday School Class had your problem. We spend about 45 minutes fellowshipping and 5 minutes in Bible Study (I'm exaggerating a little). Actually, we do take time to discuss our prayer requests and our praises and then have our Bible Study. And we have one dear lady who is nearly blind who calls everyone each week to see how we are doing. We have a prayer chain so that we can call each other when one of us is ill. Maybe that would be helpful to your group.

 

Quote from Ed

Matthew 6
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Again are you also worried about what others think of you than what God thinks ? By keeping busy serving God and others, your focus won't be so much on yourself.

 

Amen, Brother Fatbacker -- Preach it!