Featured One call...or two

Icon.. all of what you post is well and good but you still have not given us a definition as to what the call IS.

Define it for us.

What is the 'Call'? and what are they being called to?

Effectual -

Non-effectual/general -


The point here is simple for me - We must understand
1. What the 'calling' / inviting people to (no matter one or both)?
That is first and primarily important.

Once we know what people are being called/invited to..
2. To whom is the calling/invite extended?

3. Where does the validation for the call/invite come from? (on this we both agree - Christ/God because He has prepared already that which is necessary to make the call/invite valid).

You are giving or claiming distinction without defining anything or making clear the subject before piling out scripture. Once we know what we are talking about it will make all those scriptures even more clear.

I am simply asking for clarity and conciseness so movement is not jumpy but more fluid for all parties

 

Thank you Icon for some good posts. Hopefully for blessing rather than debate :

called according to his purpose
called to be saints
called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
called to peace
called in the Lord
called into the grace of Christ
called by grace
called unto liberty
called in one hope of your calling
called in one body
called unto holiness
called into his kingdom
called by the gospel
called unto eternal life
called with a holy calling
called out of darkness into light
called to suffer
called unto blessing
called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus
called us to glory and virtue

 

What does it mean to be called?

"Called" is sort of like being beckoned. It is not so much an invitation as it is the process whereby a subject is brought to the intended action of another. In context this word is normally used to describe God's elect.

John 10:26-28 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those that are called respond to the voice of the Shepherd. This voice is actually the internal work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit calls only those who are called to be part of the Shepherd's flock (deduced from the text).

The purpose of being called

Romans 8:28-29 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

God calls His elect according to His purpose. What is His purpose? His purpose is to fulfill whatever God decrees. In Romans 8 that decree is that the elect become "conformed to the image of His Son"; that they become more like Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-6 reveals a more basic reason for God's purpose:

Ephesians 1:3-6 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Basically God calls His elect in order to make Him look good! Wording it like that makes it seem a bit narcissistic, but God is the highest of all beings. If you or I made that statement it would be narcissistic, but since God is the one seeking all glory and praise it is fitting and proper.

The word for "purpose" in Romans 8:28 has the meaning of putting on display, like a decoration of trophy. That is what we are. We are called to be part of God's showcase. We are examples of His love, compassion, and grace.

While individuals are called to be part of God's showcase, that showcase is the Church. So, we see that calling the elect is an individual act with a corporate view; each person called in order to be part of a larger group, i.e. the Church. The call is extended only to the elect; those whom the Father has chosen, from eternity, according to the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11). The call is accomplished through the internal work of the Holy Spirit.

 

Ok.. Thank you. FOR ME - this is what I am looking so we have a place from which to begin. Without this common point of initial reference, we might as well be asking each other how does your apple taste, while we eat an orange.

So the above is what the calling/invite is, for the efficient call - understood.
Now, do you hold there is a general call? I do know of some Reformed who do not believe there is even a general call to the non-elect.

If there is a general call again, what is it please. Is it the same message?

For me, and for this discussion, I separate the call/invite/beckoning from the power of the Spirit ONLY to address first, the message of Calling and to whom it is sent. While I realize they are not technically separated, this is only for building understanding one point upon another, to move through theme that is dear to us all, so as to better understand mechanics of issue at hand.

Ok.. don't fall over but I am in complete agreement with you

In fact, I don't know of any non-cal or even Arminian who doesn't agree with you here as to what the calling 'is to'.

Personal note - I love studying the what we are 'called to', as they are not wishful points of thoughts but aspects we, as believers and thus children of God have been instructed to move into (where we were, and some still are not yet). It is the life that proves we have moved from darkness into light.

 

Love it.. and debate can also be a blessing.

Called by - the gospel; grace

Called to - peace; the grace of Christ; fellowship; be saints; holiness; eternal life; His Kingdom; light; suffer; blessing; His eternal glory; glory and virtue

Called in (established or validated by) - one body [Christ's body]; the Hope of your calling [Jesus];

Called with - a holy calling (this one is interesting in that while the term 'holy' is by implication - without sin, it is specific to origin - from God not man, thus without stain or taint to the calling)

Called for - according to His purpose (for His own reasons)

No disagreement here.. I like the break generalized breakdown

 

The definition of the effectual call is simply either irresistible grace, gift of faith, or some other invention not found in scripture. It is all the same, if anyone repents and puts his or her trust in Christ, they were enabled by a magic inner call, otherwise they would have not be able to seek God or trust in Christ. There is no actual support for the fiction anywhere in the bible.

 

In four places "called" us used as an adjective, thus refers to those who have been, past tense, called out of darkness into His marvelous light. See Romans 1:6, 1 Cor. 1:24, Jude 1:1 and Revelation 17:14. The called belong to Jesus and are being kept for Jesus.

 

Allan,

If there is a general call I think scripture reveals it to be that all men everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30). Unfortunately, I believe that all men everywhere are not capable of repenting. This is where you and I may disagree. I believe scripture teaches that only the elect will repent. Of course, I use the term "elect" from a distinctly Reformed view. For those who are not elect the Gospel is an "aroma of death."

2 Corinthians 2:14-16 14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?

So then, the general call is not an equal call.

 

First, I want to commend you all on a great discussion. I've been encouraged by this thread. Thank you for that! It is amazing how a brotherly discussion over differences can be edifying and informative. I especially appreciate Allan's attention to details and definitions (I've missed his participation here).

I also appreciate the thorough and cordial responses to his posts. This is refreshing. :godisgood:

I think you are right. This is a point of disagreement. I can understand how you might believe that all men everywhere are not capable of attaining righteousness by Law through Works, but why do you believe they are NOT capable of admitting their own inability (repenting/surrendering)?

Calvinists SEEM to suggest that because men are unable to attain righteousness by law through works (Romans 3:10-11); that they are equally unable to attain righteousness by grace through faith (Romans 3:19-21). IOW, you all appear to equate faith/repentance with a meritorious work of the Law thus concluding that it is equally as unattainable. Can you explain why that is? Where is that link in scripture?

 

Ok. I agree here, but here is the crux of the issue for the vast majority of those who do not hold to the 2 message position (general and effectual), and that is the legitimacy of the message given all men. THIS is one reason I wished to delve carefully and slowly into this because it is this that is the real issue and if not established first, we begin talking past one another on all the rest that we actually agree on (if people would slow down from the Cal/Non-Cal positional statements and look at what each other are actually saying).

Your statement on the gospel message - I agree (and it is nicely shorter than mine ).

Gospel - offering the promise of life eternal in knowing Jesus

So I am presuming you hold the gospel to both groups is the same message, correct?

I am enjoying it to. Again, it is not that I do not wish to interact on your previous verses.. but I wish to get this part established so that in moving into those verses we have a point of reference to move from, to, and thus helping to build scripture upon scripture as it expounds itself, while we work through it.

OH I AGREE!!
But I believe we need the foundation established first in order to progress together from the same beginning, and in the same direction, toward a more sure and understood culmination or end. Therefore while there is more to it than the general call, we must first examine what the general call is since the rest is established upon it.

I agree, and that we are responsible for whatever amount of truth God provides to us (which I am sure you agree).. For example - an island native who has never seen or heard the gospel, believes the general revelation given him.. we have no doubt God is bringing more to him (I'm leaving out the process on purpose here just for illustrative purposes). We are responsible for/to what God has revealed and are judged accordingly to what we have done with it.

The general revelation declares (as you stated) there is a God, but also it is used by God and revealed by God to declare to mankind - sin, His righteousness, and the Judgement to come, again in a general way. It is much like the Law and like the Law, no way of salvation. But also.. like the law - it was given to reveal that we NEED a saviour.

Clarification please for the discussion.
Quickening - (short definition) to make alive so one can see and understand.
Correct?? (more to it I know but for simplicity sake, I TRYING for brevity - can't you tell :laugh: )

If so, here is a question for you.. how can man come to know these facts if God is the one who must reveal them to man? What I mean is, if man does not seek after God nor can he, through his intellect, know of God and therefore God righteousness and thus his own sin, how can a non-spiritual person perceive/understand even these general things that are spiritual?

For me - It is because of this we understand He sent His Spirit into the world to convict the world of Sin, His righteousness and judgment to come; as well as noting throughout scripture that God is the one made them know/see (as in Rom 1 & 2 with general revelation and their own conscience).

This is seriously one of my questions and coincides with the discussion here as the gospel is regarding spiritual issue and aspects that man himself can never know or grasp.

If the Spirit of God/God must reveal to man man's sin, His righteousness, and the judgment to come.. we know that these things no man can come to understand apart from the revealing work of the Holy Spirit of God and so we must conclude these are spiritual things since the Spirit of God must reveal to man.

So would this not be considered a quickening if man understands even these basic things since no man can come to understand them or even come to know them apart from God revealing them to a person?

To me, in honesty, it doesn't... in fact, to me, it is still very generalize in that it is two calls, one saves because they are made alive (this is still part of the issue in question), and other general call is to people God has not obtained a way for them to be saved, and in fact does not desire them to be.. but is offering salvation to them (again, another point of contention regarding the Call)

In truth, it is in part, because of this (and mostly on studying regeneration and early Reformers views on them) I stepped away from Reformed theology in part. Another story for another day

I agree.. and I am sort of milking a bit more time than I should be for this. I still have much to today. I love this stuff and don't get a lot of sit down REAL DIGGING into the word to often with others. (I miss that about College life)

To me, I agree. I find it sad when others (from either side) state they can not find fellowship with the other side. It is sad that we serve the same Lord and yet.. *sigh, well... nevermind.

 

Those who hold to the doctrines of grace believe that the natural man is unable and unwilling (total inability) to come to God on His terms (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7). This is due to man's fallen nature (total depravity). God must take unilateral action to change man's heart making him able and willing to believe (Ephesians 1:4, 5). So, the Law has only one function, to reveal sin and its condemnation. The Law is not meritorious.

 

Whereas those who hold to the doctrines of grace believe in the total depravity and total inability of the sinner, Arminianism teaches that the sinner is not completely fallen in his nature; there still remains both good and the capacity for good. Passages such as Genesis 6:5; Romans 3:10-23; and Ephesians 2:1 make such a position problematic.

 

I understand as I used to argue for this position years ago, but allow me to restate what you believe for clarity:

You believe the natural (unregenerate) man is totally unable to respond to God's appeal for reconciliation unless God acts effectually to regenerate (give a new nature) to that man, which certainly will cause them to believe and repent.

You used 1 Cor 2:14 and Romans 8:7 to support your view of total inability, but can you point out to me where either of these verses teach that the gracious work of God in proclaiming the Gospel appeal to the world does not qualify as 'action to change man's heart?' Does a gracious work of God have to be effectual for God to get the full credit for that work? If so, why?

Look at Rom 8:7 first: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

What two things does this verse tell us?
1) Sinful men are enemies of God.

Which you would think that an appeal for reconciliation sent by God himself would be sufficient to remedy. To say that an enemy can't respond to God's appeal for reconciliation because they are enemies is kind of like saying the cure for cancer can't cure their cancer because they have cancer. I don't follow that logic. Can you explain? ​

2) Sinful man cannot submit to God's law.

How is that proof that man cannot submit to God's grace? How is proof that we can't keep the law proof that we can't believe in the one who kept the law for us? ​

I agree, but that is NEWS to the people of the first century. They felt as if they could attain righteousness by Law through works, which Paul clearly teaches them that they are TOTALLY UNABLE to do (there is your ONLY "Total Inability" in scripture), but on the other hand there is a righteousness being revealed from heaven which IS ATTAINABLE which is by Grace through Faith, which is not meritorious.