ONE God in THREE persons - blessed trinity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    This has been called the ONE God - Trinity of PERSONs doctrine.

    But for some people there is the objection that THREE PERSONS must = THREE God's not one.

    In a 3 dimensional world we think of divisions such as "Person, place or thing".

    Because of that limited view - 3 persons = 3 Gods.


    But what if there is fourth category, one higher than the category Person? -- God. So then "Person, Place, Thing, God".

    One God consisting of THREE persons is then possible and not a contradiction since the higher category "God" is taken into consideration.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Aug 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2013
  2. Nevada

    Nevada
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "Unitarian" President

    By coincidence, I just the other day came across something about Thomas Jefferson's views of the concept of "The Trinity". He was a Unitarian, so maybe his views merely reflect the thinking of that denomination (I dunno.). I'm not condemning your opinion, as I grant all the right to their thinking. I myself have not given the subject much thought. But, as you mentioned it, and as I just read of the President's thinking, here goes:

    http://www.brunswickcounty.com/Thomas_Jefferson_and_the_Doctrine_of_the_Trinity-a-1150.html
     
    #2 Nevada, Aug 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Jefferson appears not to have made so much an argument from Bible as from rhetoric. But still I think it can be observed that he limits his thinking to "person, place or thing" - and does not allow God to be in its own category but rather God is simply another example of "person".

    And in that case - 3 persons are then 3 Gods.

    By contrast - I think many will admit that infinite God - is His own category. He cannot be confined to the more simplistic "just another example of a person". One GOD - in three Persons - is possible because God is itself a new category and not just "another instance of a person".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. TrevorL

    TrevorL
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings BobRyan,

    I am a little confused by both of your posts. I prefer the Bible definition that there is one God the Father and that Jesus is the Son of God.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  5. targus

    targus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    SDA are tritheistic.

    As with other beliefs, the SDA has adopted the terminology of traditional Christianity while giving the words their own warped meaning.

    This is done to trick true Christians into thinking that the SDA are Christian and not the false gospel preaching cult that they actually are.

    The SDA believes that the "Trinity" is three separate "persons" that at some past time decided to "unite" into "one god".

    Google "clear word bible" and "tritheist" to better understand.
     
  6. targus

    targus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    I also recall reading on an SDA board a rather lengthy discussion that the Father would have "annihilated" Jesus if Jesus had disobeyed the Father and not submitted to the death on the cross.

    Recall that "annihilation" of the soul after "soul sleep" for the unsaved is a big part of SDA false theology.

    It's a weird cult pretending to be Christian.
     
  7. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,191
    Likes Received:
    0

    Greetings, Bob ...

    Are not all spirit beings sexless? ... So, can they really be persons?

    Problem is ...
    some encyclopedias say even insects are persons because they have minds, emotions, etc.

    Personally, I prefer ... God has revealed Himself/Itself as 3 "Manifestations".

    However, God obviously has desired to relate to us on our terms (for our comfort),
    which would be to present Himself as a Person (upon further revelation: 3 Persons).

    .
     
  8. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    Remember, Bob that we were originally designed in His image. We have a body, soul, and spirit... so we are a triune being who is one person.

    Anyone who reads Romans 7 and 8 can see that - in some cases in a human being - our different parts (flesh and spirit in this case) can have very different wills, desires, and actions. Yet no one would argue that the flesh and the spirit are not part of one person.
     
  9. Walter

    Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    2

    Fortunately, this issue (and it was a big one) was settled by the Early Church which was being led into the Arian heresy. The creed of St. Athanasius is considered authoritive and infallible by my church and I would be interested to know if there are those on the board that would take issue with it. Before anyone jumps in on the use of the word 'catholic' within in this creed, I believe most here it was not used to denote the Roman Catholic Church at that time. It simply meant 'universal' and something that must be embraced to be considered an orthodox Christian.

    WHOEVER wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the catholic faith (little ç').

    For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.

    This is what the catholic faith (little ç') teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.

    Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

    For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

    But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.

    What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.

    The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

    The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.

    The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.

    Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.

    So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.

    Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.

    Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

    Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

    However, there are not three gods, but one God.

    The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. However, there are not three lords, but one Lord.

    For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.

    The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.

    The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.

    The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

    There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

    In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.

    So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshiped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.

    He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.

    It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

    As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother.

    He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh.

    He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity.

    Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ.

    And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God.

    He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person.

    As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.

    He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day.

    He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

    At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds.

    Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.

    This is the catholic faith (little ç'). Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved. Amen.

    Of course I inserted the 'little 'ç' within the creed to keep blood pressures from spiking.
     
  10. Walter

    Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    2
    I noticed an LCMS parish here in town uses it in their liturgy once a year on 'Trinity Sunday'. The rest of the year they use the Apostles or Nicene Creed.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    It can easily be seen that a single person is made up of body, soul and spirit. But it is not so easy to show that the body is the beloved son of the soul, or the spirit, nor does a person say of himself "let us go to the store" - nor does the body pray to the soul or the other way around.

    In John 17 Christ does not ask that our body soul and spirit "be one even as we are one" but rather that the Church members themselves be "one" as the Father and Son are one.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    So in your view, is Jesus not God? What of the Holy Spirit?
     
  13. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    Au contraire mon frere.

    Jhn 8:19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.
    24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
    33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
    44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    Gen 17:5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram,
    But your name shall be Abraham;
    For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

    Rom 4:17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

    Gal 4:27 For it is written,
    “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
    BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
    FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
    THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
    28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.​

    We can see and understand how spiritual kinship works. It is not a matter of "production" or "reproduction" so much a matter of the nature of the relationship. It is the nature of WHO not HOW (who we are in Christ, not how we were produced).

    Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

    So the kinship is a matter of the nature of the spiritual relationship A) between us and Jesus, and B) between Jesus and the Father. "Son" and "descendant" are human terms that help us to understand the relationship, but are not the whole of the definition.

    Now lets add one more concept to the mix:

    Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

    2Cr 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    1Cr 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.​

    I've been pondering these for a while. Doesn't this mean that when a person is "born again" and obtains a righteous spirit, that this "new birth" comes with a new body. Yet, we are not attached to this new, immortal body until after the death of this mortal one. We can see and understand this concept. We can know that there is a split between our spirit and our flesh. That they are (in a literal, spiritual sense) different creatures.

    So it shouldn't be too tremendously difficult to see the idea of a Trinity - 3 parts of one God. As we are body, soul, and spirit, God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    Don't you think that is a picture of salvation? Just as Christ is in the Father, so too we are joined to Christ and share in the "sonship" rights as a result.

    Psa 82:6 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are sons of the Most High.

    Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’?
    35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
    36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

    Jhn 17:11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
    21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
    22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
    23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.​
     
  14. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    So what I am saying is that we can see that Jesus did not come from sexual reproduction, but is spiritually associated with God as "one". Just as the Jews Jesus spoke with were spiritually associated with the devil (Jesus said they were of their father, the devil) and we are spiritually associated with Abraham (whom God calls the father of many nations).

    In John 17 it talks about us being in Jesus just as Jesus is in the Father. That Jesus asks that we be "one" just as He and the Father are "one." He's asking God to extend to believers the same relationship that God has with Jesus. We are called "sons of God" not because God had sex with our human mothers, but because we are IN Christ, and connected in relationship to God. I don't mean "relationship" as in the quality of our conversations and familiarity, I mean relationship as in our position in existence relative to God the Father.

    Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    So we can understand about the Trinity in that we can understand all these other metaphors about who we are relationally to Christ. We are the Bride of Christ, the Sons of God, the joint heirs with Christ. Just as my sperm and my wife's egg joined to form my daughter, my spirit and Christ's spirit have joined to form a new creature. Just as there is an essence of me and my wife in my daughter, there is an essence of God in Christ, and an essence of Christ in the believer, and therefore we are joined with God as Christ is joined with God because we are joined with Christ.

    Just as Abraham is my father (he is IN ME) because we both share the same faith in the gospel, and just as the devil is the father of those who reject Christ (they are IN him), and just as I inherit the righteousness given to Abraham by way of inheritance, we can see also that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are IN the Father, and the Father is IN them. Like we can understand that all believers are members of one body, just as all the cells and organs are members of one fleshly body, we can see that the Holy Spirit and Christ are part of the Father. There is ONE God, just as we have ONE body of flesh. Just because different organs have different functions doesn't make them part of another body. They share the same LIFE. Similarly, Jesus and the Holy Ghost share in the LIFE of the FATHER as we will one day also share in that LIFE. Just as we have technology to join an organ to another body (a heart transplant for example) it doesn't mean that the life of the transplant recipient is two. It is ONE. The life of the organ depends on the life of it's host, so it is one with the body.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Agreed.

    Jesus, Adam, Eve are all examples of humans that come into being by some other mechanism then normal reproduction.

    Adam and Eve have an origin that is even more remote and distinct from the normal mode - than Christ.

    They are made from dirt - and / or from a rib as the case may be.

    Indeed but the Jews were not "one person" with the devil.

    Also true - but we are not one person with Abraham.


    Agreed - at least as far as it goes with humans.


    And yet many different persons.

    In the case of the body - all parts make up the "one person" - and the parts are not individually "a person".

    But in the case of the church and of the Trinity - it is persons that make up the "one".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who cares about anyone's views?

    Instead, care about the 70+ verses which reveal/teach that ...
    Jesus is God, is equal to Father God, is the Creator, is the Sustainer (now), is the Giver of eternal life, etc.

    Who's gonna be the foist to wanna see 'em [again!]?

    .
     
  17. TrevorL

    TrevorL
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings annsni,

    I appreciate your question. I participated in a fairly thorough discussion on the Trinity on this forum and from memory you had some participation. The last post on this was on April 23rd 13, and I presented much of my overall view of this subject. On Page 19 (of 22) of that thread Post 185 I added a summary of my various Posts. I do not want to repeat what I have written in that thread, and I feel that the Moderators may have been very patient with me even in that thread. If there is anything very specific that I have not answered or has not been responded to from a Trinitarian view I would possibly respond to this only. I am still convinced of what I wrote in that thread, and it appears that most of those who responded have not shifted from their Trinitarian position.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  18. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    The reason they have not shifted from their Trinitarian position is because it is the biblical one. Thank you for reminding me of the old thread. I do recall that discussion and your unorthodox view.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    When I review evidence in favor of the Trinitarian position it usually focuses on looking for the "God alone" texts of the Bible and then noting how those very same attributes are assigned to God the Son - Jesus Christ.

    One of the strongest being that the Bible declares that God "alone" created and established the earth - and yet John 1 and Col 1 present Christ as the one that did that. And then ends in Rev 14:7 saying that we are to "worship Him who made...".

    Thus even non-Trinitarian groups admit that Christ is "the one who made..." in John 1 and in Col 1. Yet Rev 14:7 says to "Worship Him who made...".

    That example alone establishes a key element of the Trinitarian position.

    What the non-Trinitarian position has going for it is that in a number of places - God the Son, Jesus Christ is said to be in a subordinate relationship to God the Father.

    The fact that there is order and hierarchy within the God head between the 3 persons is used sometimes as an argument against a Triune Godhead. More than that -- in their various role relationships with each other - they present different roles to us. The Holy Spirit was not crucified on the cross and we do not pray to Jesus - we pray to God the Father as Jesus and the Holy Spirit instruct us to do.

    (How much less then - would we ever be inclined to pray to the dead. Another topic - but that point about prayer brings it up.)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    I believe it is so much more than simply an unorthodox view. For a person to argue against the overwhelming evidence presented in the scriptures which portrays Jesus Christ as God is paramount to antichrist, for it is the very Spirit of Christ whom reveals to us Jesus is LORD - Jehovah. Some doctrines are debatable and Christians can agree to disagree, but some doctrines such as the Deity of Christ is God given to the born of God. This is witnessed over and over throughout the Jewish and Muslim communities when one is converted to Christ they immediately declare Jesus is Saviour and God, just as Thomas did.
     

Share This Page

Loading...