one last try

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, Dec 8, 2011.

  1. nodak

    nodak
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    In my post about the meaning of the word Lord, I was referring to simply the meaning of the word as used in the NT, such as "Jesus is Lord" or "Lord Jesus."

    I'm thinking of folks having to say "Caesar is Lord" affirming the deity of Caesar, not his political position.

    Would in that light these references be affirming the deity of Jesus?

    Please don't turn it into a Lordship Salvation debate.

    Let it be a word meaning debate.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    Then you are not interested in knowing what the word means as it is not simply about confirming a truth as much as it is accepting it (living it out). The lost can confirm He is Lord. In fact I have met some who admit they believe Jesuis is Lord and then say they are not ready to get right with Him.
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    Ignore the ramblings around here...some folks will never be satisfied until their agenda is accomplished.

    What I've read on the issue confirms that the term "Jesus is Lord" was, in part, a reply to the "Caesar is Lord" pledge that many had to make. Though "Jesus is Lord" is part of the confession of salvation in Romans, it is likely Paul is adopting this from the earliest Christian confession (what some might call creed.)

    For more info on this check of JND Kelly's Early Christian Creeds or Oscar Cullmann's Earliest Christian Confessions...I think Cullmann wrote that. Anyways both have brief discussions about this. It is likely that the phrase "Jesus is Lord" originated in contradistinction to "Caesar is Lord."
     
  4. JesusFan

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    Apostle Paul called Jesus "kerios", and he said that he had a name bestowed upon Him by the father, highest name of all, 'Lord" so Paul indeed was ascribing deity to Jesus!

    Also has a passage where paul call Him as the Judge of both the living and the deasd, and refers to Him there as being idenified with/same as "Yahweh/Jehovah!"
     
  5. jbh28

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    Lord simply means master. Today, we typically reserve the name of Lord for Jesus Christ, but that's not always the case. In the KJV, you can see places where the term lord is used to refer to someone not Jesus.
     
  6. HankD

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    "Lord" is the koine word kurios and yes it can mean simply master as in the following verse:

    Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters (kuriois) according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;​

    HankD​
     
  7. percho

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    How about in this verse from Acts 2

    assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him -- this Jesus whom ye did crucify.'

    Meaning of Lord here and when was he made Lord and Christ?

    Maybe that is when the son of David became his Lord?
     
  8. HankD

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    He was/is/shall be almighty God from eternity to eternity.

    HankD
     
  9. percho

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    I don't have a problem with that but that doesn't give meaning to that verse from Acts 2.


    Barnes terms make as appointed and that's ok also however you would say appointed always and forever whereas I who knows no Greek thinks the text implies this appointing is relative to being resurrected from the dead. Maybe some of the Greek folk could share some light on this ?.
     
  10. HankD

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    OK, I'm still not exactly sure what you are after but let me address what I think you are asking.

    When did Jesus become Lord?

    When the Word became flesh something happened theologically known as the kenosis.

    The kenosis addresses the issue of what if anything did Christ (O Logos) lose when He became human.

    There is a great deal of controversy and disagreement concerning the kenosis so expect some missles to be launched against me concerning my take on the kenosis.

    An explanation of varying views - Walvoord: http://bible.org/seriespage/humiliation-son-god

    My take (not chiseled in granite):

    He lost nothing but He voluntarily and temporarily set aside some of the perogatives of deity while veiling His glory here on earth.

    RE:Glory - Except perhaps at the Transfiguration:

    Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.​

    His voluntary lowering:

    Philippians 2
    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. ​

    Look at it this way : He voluntarily reduced Himself in rank from General to a private for a mission to earth - that is what He meant by saying:​

    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Greater in rank. ​

    In the vernacular of this world, a general is greater in rank than a private but both are human.​

    It was temporary:​

    RSV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.​

    As the God-man, the incarnate Logos, He was subsequently restored and has returned to His glory which He had from eternity​

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

    Philippians 2
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

    The Philippians 2 passage shows that He never ceased to be God or Lord of all but voluntarily became subject to the Father and was obedient to His will unto death for our sakes.

    While He was here in the flesh He was still Lord of all, yet He was simultaneously a servant by example and choice:

    Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.​

    John 13
    13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
    14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
    15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
    16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
    17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.​

    The example to be followed:

    John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.​

    Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.​

    HankD
     
    #10 HankD, Dec 9, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  11. JesusFan

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    based upon the Gospel of John, it appears that Jesus "laid aside" His intrinsic Glory while coming to earth as a man, and that when he was resurrected, he was granted back His fullness of Glory, and at TAHT time he was given His name above all other names, namely LORD Title of God...

    In some unknown fashion, jesus was/is God, as he was the Word who became human Flesh, but also He was exaulted and granted by Hi9s ftaher to share the name of LORD God!
     
  12. HankD

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    OK, But after the resurrection His glory is not displayed as in the Transfiguration apart from the appearance of an angel at the tomb.

    My take is that all was reinstated after the ascension to the right hand (place of ultimate honor) as the God-man the Logos incarnate.

    1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.​

    HankD
     
  13. percho

    percho
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    Hank, that is a long and well thought post yet more than we can hope to cover esp. not being face to face. And I do not know where to begin. I will begin by saying, as all who have read my post know, for a Baptist I am a little unorthodox and little would be an understatement of which my Pastor would agree.

    I believe Jesus is God.

    That being said we can not ignore statements where things like; He received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. That statement says Jesus received something that was promised and which he either never had or he had relinquished for some reason. God Is Spirit, Holy and Spirit is Life.

    We are all sons of Adam begotten by our Fathers with the seed/egg of our mothers. Souls, living because of the spirit of the breath of life from God. We are the sons of Adam through both our father and mother.

    Jesus was begotten by God Spirit Holy of the seed/egg of the virgin Mary.
    Through her he is also the seed of David and the seed of the promises made to Abraham and because Eve was taken from Adam the seed of Adam the son of God.

    Unlike us he, Jesus from conception was indwelt with God Spirit Holy yet he was made of woman, came in the flesh, came by the water and the blood, a man child the promised seed of Abraham and through him any promises made for man will come for they were made to and for him the man child of God. We are only joint heirs because he has inherited the promises.

    God to my knowledge does not qualify death as physical and spiritual. He told Adam in the day thou eat thereof, dying you will surly die.

    The moment that sinless man child of God commended his spirit (Life) unto the hands of the Father he DIED. He ceased to be. If he doesn't receive the promises God has made him the only life man will have will be from birth to death. But God has made promises and because of Faith man can be born again to live forever. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Here is a promise of God. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Jesus died for our sins, BUT A13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Who G1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    God The Father raised him from the dead, the regeneration (How) What is Life? the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

    At the resurrection he was given Life, see above, Power see Rom 1:4 and Glory see 1 Peter 1:21 A name more excellent than the angels see Heb 1:4,5
    The resurrected Son of Man the Son of God the only begotten of the Father.
     
  14. HankD

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    Jesus mortal body, the vessel of His humanity died - not His Spirit that is why He said "into thy hands I commend my Spirit".


    HankD
     
  15. percho

    percho
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    I agree with that the spirit of life from God returned to God who gave it and Jesus died. Jesus was dead because spirit which had made him a living soul had departed from him.
     
  16. HankD

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    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.​

    Jesus therefore took part in raising Himself from the grave.​

    Eternal Almighty God, the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity cannot die.​

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.​

    Jesus is God (Ho Logos, The Word) come in the flesh.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

    Jesus truly suffered and died when His mortal body died.
    His Spirit then returned to the Father.​

    Jesus human death was like ours, when we die our spirit-soul goes to be with God.​

    He was not anihilated, neither did He cease to exist as you seem to indicate.​

    This anihilation of the soul-spirit at death is the teaching of Jehovah Witnesses and other erroneous groups.​

    HankD​
     
  17. JesusFan

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    Agreed....

    That was when the Father "reinstated" back to Him the fullness of His glory that was laid aside while on the earth!

    I was just trying to make sense of the Phillipians passages that seemed to indicate that 'something" new was involved in Jesus being granted the name 'Lord" at His resurrection/return back to heaven!
     
  18. HankD

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    OK, I understand. And indeed there was a "new" thing as you implied - His resurrected body and also His humanity He acquired from being "born of a woman".

    Eternity was interrupted by His Incarnation.

    Before the incarnation He was Lord as God the second person of the Trinity.

    During the days of His flesh He willingly laid aside the perogatives of deity and veiled His glory, yet He was still Lord of all, still omni-everything, though He made no demands that His creation acknowledge Him as such.
    If any did, fine, if not, well, they would later for sure.

    His primary mission in the days of His flesh was to be the Savior of the world and to redeem humanity and not primarily to be served and worshipped as Lord though He accepted such from any who were willing.

    Post resurrection He is still Lord but now He is both truly God and truly man.

    That the Father exalted Him as a man and declared His Lordship post resurrection was to eliminate any doubt that His humanity and temporary kenosis diminished His eternal deity/Lordship.

    Jesus Christ as God-man is Lord of all - angelic beings, saved and lost humanity and anything else and one day all will acknowledge the same, some by constraint, and some out of love and adoration.

    Philippians 2
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​


    HankD
     
  19. percho

    percho
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    I think the primary mission of God having a Son born in the flesh was to destroy Satan the one that has the power of death which is sin, which comes through lust to temptation. This was done through death
    and re-generation. The Lamb without spot or blemish was slain, (death ) from the foundation of the world. Before the first living soul subject to being slain was created The Word God had determined his Son born a flesh and blood living soul would die.

    YLT Gen 9:4 only flesh in its life (nephesh soul -- its blood -- ye do not eat. Isa 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death: Soul nephesh life unto death. Shed his blood, his soul, his life unto death.

    Our salvation was bought redeemed by the bathing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (of Jesus), then and only then, J16:7 if I go not away the HS will not come, Titis 3:6 through the regenerated and renewed with the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ our Saviour the Holy Spirit was shed on us.

    In beginning was the Word and the Word was toward the God and God was the Word.

    The Word God, Spirit Holy in the seed/egg of the virgin Mary conceived a man child which she brought forth as her firstborn son and he (Joseph) called his name Jesus.

    If he, the soul in the blood, Jesus did not die and if the soul Jesus was not resurrected from the dead (Hades) regenerated by the Holy Spirit, then: 1 Cor 15:17,18 your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. Whatever that means.
     
  20. percho

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    IMHO Jesus the Christ, the Anointed = prophet, priest, king.
    Was Jesus priest when he walked the earth for 33 years? See Heb. 5:5 for when he Jesus was made high priest, "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."
    Was Jesus king at this same period of time. He told Pilate it was to that end he was born. However his kingdom is, not out of the system this, not of this world. See Luke 19 also where he speaks of going to a far country (heaven) to receive a kingdom.
    He walked as the anointed prophet of God. Thus says the Lord God, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    You said, "Jesus human death was like ours, when we die our spirit-soul goes to be with God."

    This spirit-soul is not a word of God concept. Spirit is what gives life and is from God in heaven. Soul is what life (spirit) is given to. OT the soul went into the pit, Sheol, lowest parts of the earth, down. Same in the NT. Jesus did not say his body would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, He said the Son of Man would be. Thou will not leave my soul in hell (Hades, OT Sheol) not the same as the spirit that was commended into the hands of the Father to hold until it is given back.

    Are the dead in Christ in first Thess. 4, dead souls or dead bodies?
    The text says God will being the dead in Christ with Christ. How does the text say the dead in Christ will be brought with Christ?
    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
    even so (BY resurrection from the dead- regeneration) them also which sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) will God bring with him. When and where??
    2 Tim. 4:1 I charge therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
    #20 percho, Dec 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2011

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